Indonesia Casual Discussion Warkop Indonesia

[Lordimperator]

Instant way, asked US and Japan for us to get their defense umbrella.

Joining QUAD, change it to PENTA

 

[morningstar]

Joining QUAD, change it to PENTA

I see that too far really wkwk. You know how US Forces can struck target in Pakistan that based on Title 10 they are only legal to doing military operation in wartime, that you must know Pakistan is not the place that de jure US was at war? The solution was their hunter killer drones and personnels were BKOed to CIA with its freer Title 50 that can doing operation anywhere anytime except inside US territory.

So the operations were CIA operation, but transportations, materials and even the killers etc etc are from DoD, undang-undang yang dipake UU CIA. Same as TNI operations in Papua or Central Sulawesi. Our military can just doing its own operation here if Daerah Operasi Militer is declared, if not then the rubber stamp from Police must be used. Police are responsible with the operation, the head of the operations are police.

Same as if hypothetical US and Japan forces to be here. Sheep dipped them to the Task Force that we we are the party that responsible for it. It’s not new at all, Soviet personnels were also here during the Operation Trikora, notably submarines that stationed in Bitung. The point is, we are above them and we responsible with this business de jure at least. It’s a legal problem, not technical if we go to this part wkwk

 

[RadenSudirman]

That loud Komodo wkwk…. No. He still too afraid to take conclusion why our ancestors from molecular biology and Adam and Eve stories are different, or he is too conservative to me.

Hadits that human was so high before and getting shorter gradually also not fit with science at all wkwk. He must think about that also, so he can be more freely to speak his view and not snared by his belief

Well, yes he is too scatterbrained for anything, attempted to study everything but missed more than half the points. Yeah, he's not good at focusing on one thing and drawing a conclusion.

I think often if the topic is religion, people generally cannot differentiate between faith (subjective reality) and objective reality. Fanatics confuse them up together and make a mess, putting religion against science, instead of with science. Even in the modern world, faith and religion, I think, are perfectly compatible. What's not compatible is not really faith itself, but sectarian fanaticism and dogmatic beliefs.

 

[JATOSINT]

Tidak goyang, ICBM melayang~

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524181361149440000

 

[RadenSudirman]

Joining QUAD, change it to PENTA

I think with this case, we know what China is thinking right now: island chains strategy is fragile, these "allied" countries can't always be politically influenced to stay in the US camp and their alignment can sway either way at any moment. So China will push more attempt at ruining the island chain strategy politically, and I suppose will take form through economic influence. Americans are gigit jari right now, frustrated with China's investment strategy which they cannot hope to copy.

But the US has an effective diplomatic strategy: through arms and military influence. The reason why SK, Japan, and gulf countries are reliably under US influence, is due to their reliance on the US military and US weapons to protect themselves. Well yes, America looks like preman here, but it's their only major advantage against Chinese diplomatic maneuvering.

 

[morningstar]

people generally cannot differentiate between faith (subjective reality) and objective reality.

Yup, faith is subjective, but this stuff can also affecting the trajectory where certain country going into, so the destruction can be collective to the whole country, and i think it’s not worth it at all to die for certain people belief or religion that as you said, subjective. It is normal for other people to not believe the same so called ‘reality’ as what you believe, even secular religion is more real than belief of certain cult teaching for me.

And also we can’t just close our eyes that Palestine-Israel conflict also influential here to shape how people shape their view of world. After that, they started to become anti-semitic, know what next. This conflict is a very focal point for lot of Indonesian. Politically, this belief thingy is one of the variable.

Even in the modern world, faith and religion, I think, are perfectly compatible.

Ya, people can make it fit, even Animism or Hindu that older than Abrahamic religions are still can be made fit. I don’t know, but i think younger generation especially that are relatively more exposed to more views than its older generations are find more defects in ‘it’, that might be Hiloni–like generation are the next thing happen here.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524148889741365248

Andhika Perkasa
Get those CG !

 

[RadenSudirman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524148889741365248

Andhika Perkasa
Get those CG !

We need dedicated anti tank battalions really

Tbh I was skeptical at first with "older" weapons like Carl Gustav and RPGs, as they have a small caliber and that "experts" on the internet really undermine their projected effectiveness against "invincible" tanks like Abrams and Merkava, or even their Russian equivalent like T90. But here we are, even tankies admitted that Carl Gustav destroyed a "T90", let alone contemporary weapons like NLAW and Javelin. But because the fact that even 84mm caliber weapon is able to destroy MBTs, proves that the assumption that medium tanks of 105mm caliber guns (like Harimau) cannot ever go against MBT is simply not true.


Btw, you know what, defense and military-related discussions are supposed to be objective and rational, due to the nature of the military itself which demanded concrete results. Yet the reality is that military discussions are often very biased, full of myths and that people just simply cannot differentiate facts vs opinion. I think personally this sort of behavior is consistent throughout any defense discussion, but especially so in unmoderated forums.

This is why we often see very flawed logic and assumption taken to be true by people, some of these myths are even believed by real military experts and generals themselves.

 

[FPXAllen]

Andhika Perkasa
Get those CG !

But here we are, even tankies admitted that Carl Gustav destroyed a "T90"

Ada opini lain soal T-90 yang disinyalir berhasil dijebol dengan Carl Gustav.

Menurut opini ini, kalau lihat dari video yang tersebar luas, belum tentu T-90nya hancur karena gak terlihat adanya ledakan amunisi melainkan "cuma" sekedar ledakan tanki bahan bakar. Mbuhlah yang benernya gimana.

Yang jelas bukan berarti Carl Gustaf sama sekali gak punya chance buat bikin T-90 jadi barbecue, apalagi kalau mengingat amunisinya juga ada yang tandem HEAT. Belum lagi ditambah laporan lapangan "ERA"-nya T-72 Rusia ternyata ada yang isinya cuma karton telor yang kalau sampai kejadian juga di T-90M ini ya berarti sudahlah ya...

 

[morningstar]

We need dedicated anti tank battalions really

It’s so inflexible to destroy tanks the commander have to move battalion wkwk or maybe the personnels are shared to the squad or ODA?

Better give AT recoilless rifle to each platoon, expensive platoon that people can be proud of, and the morale getting higher because they have more firepower. It just empty words wkwk many personnels are can’t even aim through the iron sight (forget optical sight) at the condition of peteng dedet (gelap gulita).

 

[RadenSudirman]

It’s so inflexible to destroy tanks the commander have to move battalion wkwk or maybe the personnels are shared to the squad or ODA?

Better give AT recoilless rifle to each platoon, expensive platoon that people can be proud of, and the morale getting higher because they have more firepower. It just empty words wkwk many personnels are can’t even aim through the iron sight (forget optical sight) at the condition of peteng dedet (gelap gulita).

A battalion is not that big in terms of relative size, just a few hundred men. I don't think assigning a specific task to a battalion makes them inflexible, quite the contrary IMO.

Of course, we can try giving all rifle units in the Army some form of AT weapon or have a dedicated AT platoon in every battalion. But can we tho? That will be an enormous requirement of AT equipment vs actual procurement capability. Added on top of that is the balance between having the right amount of firepower when we need it vs what units will get them.

A Platoon is way too small, just some dozens of men, and not all of them will be given AT nor are supposed to operate AT weapons. A platoon is also generally cannot sustain itself, a battalion can, and having a battalion perform this task is important due to the complexity of AT weapons and AT task itself and the AT firepower required at a time to effectively defeat an armored column (which will also operate at battalion level).

Concentrated firepower > Dispersed firepower. Why did the Germans make Tank Divisions? concentrating their tanks instead of dispersing them the way the French did? Because it is simply better to concentrate than to disperse your forces when waging (and winning) a battle.

 

[chibiyabi]

A battalion is not that big in terms of relative size, just a few hundred men. I don't think assigning a specific task to a battalion makes them inflexible, quite the contrary IMO.

Of course, we can try giving all rifle units in the Army some form of AT weapon or have a dedicated AT platoon in every battalion. But can we tho? That will be an enormous requirement of AT equipment vs actual procurement capability. Added on top of that is the balance between having the right amount of firepower when we need it vs what units will get them.

A Platoon is way too small, just some dozens of men, and not all of them will be given AT nor are supposed to operate AT weapons. A platoon is also generally cannot sustain itself, a battalion can, and having a battalion perform this task is important due to the complexity of AT weapons and AT task itself and the AT firepower required at a time to effectively defeat an armored column (which will also operate at battalion level).

Concentrated firepower > Dispersed firepower. Why did the Germans make Tank Divisions? concentrating their tanks instead of dispersing them the way the French did? Because it is simply better to concentrate than to disperse your forces when waging (and winning) a battle.

sekarang ini konsep dedicated battalion makin di tinggalkan, karena bakal memperpanjang rantai komando, TNI AD sudah mulai merubah doktrin pertempurannya dengan bikin yon komposit, sudah ada yon cakra. dalam pergelarannya yon komposit ini digabung menjadi setingkat brigade tim pertempuran. penyempurnaan dari doktrin yg dimiliki oleh marinir. jadi dengan yon komposit sebenarnya sudah punya kemampuan AT, yg belum itu ya perkuatan unit infanteri, belum punya fire power yg memadai, makanya RPG terus CG banyak diinginkan diakuisisi AD. Sejak dahulu infanteri marinir udah punya kekeuatan daya tembak yg lebih dengan RPGnya, dan jelas keliatan waktu operasi di Aceh dulu, gerak marinir lebih cair karena ga perlu nunggu tembakan bantuan.

 

[morningstar]

A battalion is not that big in terms of relative size, just a few hundred men.

Hell no wkwk it's like moving the whole Indobatt in Naqoura (UNIFIL) wkwk imagine that

 

[RadenSudirman]

Hell no wkwk it's like moving the whole Indobatt in Naqoura (UNIFIL) wkwk imagine that

I know how a few hundred men look like, combined with all their equipment and vehicles, that's just one small stadium in size or so, I've seen a queue bigger than that. Honestly, a battalion is big? Name me a major military operation conducted with less than a battalion in size. Even a brigade is considered the lowest level of unit capable of independent command. Compared to the scale of war for most of history, a battalion is almost nothing, and that even includes medieval warfare.

The military is not about parades, hanging out at koramil, handling traffic, or committing token security force (the art of just showing up), which may only demand less than 100 guys or so, but no, this is considering a real combat situation. Even then, the AT battalion idea is generous (and cheap) enough, not even talking about regiment or even division level capability.

We have hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and in wartime will require more, but moving like 600 guys to perform one tactical task is heavy?

 

[RadenSudirman]

sekarang ini konsep dedicated battalion makin di tinggalkan, karena bakal memperpanjang rantai komando, TNI AD sudah mulai merubah doktrin pertempurannya dengan bikin yon komposit, sudah ada yon cakra. dalam pergelarannya yon komposit ini digabung menjadi setingkat brigade tim pertempuran. penyempurnaan dari doktrin yg dimiliki oleh marinir. jadi dengan yon komposit sebenarnya sudah punya kemampuan AT, yg belum itu ya perkuatan unit infanteri, belum punya fire power yg memadai, makanya RPG terus CG banyak diinginkan diakuisisi AD. Sejak dahulu infanteri marinir udah punya kekeuatan daya tembak yg lebih dengan RPGnya, dan jelas keliatan waktu operasi di Aceh dulu, gerak marinir lebih cair karena ga perlu nunggu tembakan bantuan.

Benar, tapi konteksnya disini adalah skenario vs armored column melawan peer enemy, bukan melawan insurgent level threat. Jadi keperluan untuk firepower sudah sangat berbeda lagi, apalagi jika AT yang dimaksud adalah yang tipe berat, tidak bisa digunakan perorangan tapi penting jika lawannya adalah unit kavaleri berat.

Saya memang setuju dengan unit komposit, maka dari itu saya setuju untuk expand Kostrad dan Marinir (sudah pernah saya sebutkan di forum ini di akun berbeda). Tapi unit komposit sangat mahal, makanya kusebutkan sebelumnya kemampuan procurement existing tidak bisa memenuhi ide apabila semua batalyon punya kapabilitas AT yang sama. Kostrad saja hanya punya 3 Divisi Infrantri, Marinir punya 3 Pasukan, tidak banyak, dan itupun mereka dianggap sebagai unit paling well-equipped.

Masalahnya kamu bilang sendiri, itu melawan GAM, yang tidak memerlukan firepower, tapi manuver, sangat berbeda konteks dengan yang kita diskusikan yaitu skenario melawan unit tank.

 

[morningstar]

I know how a few hundred men look like, combined with all their equipment and vehicles, that's just one small stadium in size or so, I've seen a queue bigger than that. Honestly, a battalion is big? Name me a major military operation conducted with less than a battalion in size. Even a brigade is considered the lowest level of unit capable of independent command. Compared to the scale of war for most of history, a battalion is almost nothing, and that even includes medieval warfare.

The military is not about parades, hanging out at koramil, handling traffic, or committing token security force (the art of just showing up), which may only demand less than 100 guys or so, but no, this is considering a real combat situation. Even then, the AT battalion idea is generous (and cheap) enough, not even talking about regiment or even division level capability.

We have hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and in wartime will require more, but moving like 600 guys to perform one tactical task is heavy?

But imagine that whole battalion is a dedicated AT battalion. Good to @chibiyabi he said right now the Army just started composite battalion and cakra battalion. I still can take if the AT battalion put their platoon to other battalion, but isn't that just make the coordination more complicated rather than just one battalion commander has lot of capabilities.

 

[RadenSudirman]

But imagine that whole battalion is a dedicated AT battalion. Good to @chibiyabi he said right now the Army just started composite battalion and cakra battalion. I still can take if the AT battalion put their platoon to other battalion, but isn't that just make the coordination more complicated rather than just one battalion commander has lot of capabilities.

Firepower is the issue. I mean the idea of a composite force originated during the time of Napoleon when the Corps acted as a mini-army with so-called composite capability/ combined arms. The point is that each Corps unit can be flexible and able to act independently, hence increasing maneuverability. But this is a Corps unit, which is like 20.000 men strong and was considered "small army" in the 1800s. But 100 men unit doing independent tactical engagement? how much firepower does it carry tbh?

Also, the guy admitted that it is for COIN-type warfare which doesn't really require that many AT assets, furthermore he admitted that the command will be held by Brigade level commander anyway. I think none of you actually disagree with me, is just misunderstanding that led to people missing the point. Well, I simply proposed some battalion capable of having high AT firepower, in the context of combating something similar to what Russia is doing with their armored column (certainly not against GAM).

In fact, there was already a similar unit to my concept, that is "Weapons Company":

Weapons company - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Such a company will be equipped with heavier weapons such AT and AA, and also adds firepower through the employment of heavy weapons.

So higher level than a platoon, but under the battalion complementing other regular rifle platoons. I think this is the way we should organize the Army, by incorporating weapons companies into frontline battalions to increase effectiveness against armored peer enemies.

 

[Lordimperator]

belum tentu T-90nya hancur karena gak terlihat adanya ledakan amunisi melainkan "cuma" sekedar ledakan tanki bahan bakar.

Salah satu rumor :

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1524295070664605696

 

[morningstar]

Well, I simply proposed some battalion capable of having high AT firepower, in the context of combating something similar to what Russia is doing with their armored column (certainly not against GAM).

Battalion specialized to fire CG, Ironman battalion. Why not just bigger gun sekalian 105mm to replace your CG anti tank battalion?

 

[JATOSINT]

sekarang ini konsep dedicated battalion makin di tinggalkan, karena bakal memperpanjang rantai komando, TNI AD sudah mulai merubah doktrin pertempurannya dengan bikin yon komposit, sudah ada yon cakra. dalam pergelarannya yon komposit ini digabung menjadi setingkat brigade tim pertempuran. penyempurnaan dari doktrin yg dimiliki oleh marinir. jadi dengan yon komposit sebenarnya sudah punya kemampuan AT, yg belum itu ya perkuatan unit infanteri, belum punya fire power yg memadai, makanya RPG terus CG banyak diinginkan diakuisisi AD. Sejak dahulu infanteri marinir udah punya kekeuatan daya tembak yg lebih dengan RPGnya, dan jelas keliatan waktu operasi di Aceh dulu, gerak marinir lebih cair karena ga perlu nunggu tembakan bantuan.

CMIIW, dari contoh Yon Mandala Yudha sama Gardapati, buat AD yang terhitung 'Komposit' itu kalau ada lebih dari satu kecabangan di Yon yg sama

So I don't think by just equipping a regular IB with portable AT weapons, that IB becomes a Composite IB