Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Ryder]

What kind of joke is this.. is it offset or something? Poor Georgia gets TB2s and Turkey gets Junk-25.. Why not Hurkus-C! Why not something like A130.. why not concentrate on Hurjet CAS

The SU25 Frogfoot is not junk.

 

[Profchaos]

I have a question but it might be stupid. If US rejects the f16 purchase can we request f110 and f404s. Would they accept this offer. Because we should definitelly guarantee the purchase of the engines for hurjet and mmu. We are heading towards an altay like failure if we dont plan the engine supply.

we can get 100 f404 and 100 f110 for less than 2 billion. I think we should consider this

edit: we can guarantee the engines of all trainer hurjets plus the spare ones. İnstead of spending money to produce an engine for hurjet we can spend all the money for the engine of mmu.

on the other hand 100 f110s would guarantee the production of first batch of 40 mmu’s

 

[Cabatli_TR]

In the statement made after the meeting, it was noted that bilateral relations and regional issues were discussed in the meeting, which took place in a positive atmosphere.

During the meeting, the two leaders made a joint statement of will to further strengthen and develop Turkey-US relations and agreed to establish a joint mechanism in this direction.

During the meeting, the steps to be taken mutually in line with the common perspective to increase the bilateral trade volume were discussed, and the ground of NATO alliance and strategic partnership was emphasized.

T.C.CUMHURBAŞKANLIĞI : Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan, ABD Başkanı Biden ile görüştü

Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanlığı Resmî Sitesi

www.tccb.gov.tr

 

[Combat-Master]

Ministry of National Defense sources announced that delegations from the Turkish and US defence ministries are planning to hold the second meeting on the F-35s in Washington in a few months.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455100751169171462

I guess we won't let go until the US gibs money back...

 

[Ardabas34]

They are stalling us from a possible Syrian operation with empty hopes. We will never get F-35s.

 

[MADDOG]

I confirmed the news to my engineer friend at TAI. The engineer responsible for Özgür modernization was included in the team that went to Georgia.

Oh how is the Özgür program going btw? We haven't been getting a lot of updates lately. Still waiting for that AESA?

 

[BordoEnes]

If one was to suggest 2 weeks ago that Turkey should get Su-25, everybody here would call him an idiot. But when the government decides that it should be done, suddenly it's a genius idea.

You people are sheep. Su25 is literally the worst military jet in the world. Gripen would eat it for breakfast. If I was a greek rafale pilot I wouldn't even waste a missile, I would close in and get an easy gun kill.

You are objectively wrong in that regard. Gripen and Su-25 are completely different aircrafts who's purpose are different from each other. They are not comparable in the slightest. Its like saying drones are dogshit and useless because fighter jets are way more capable and better. The principle is the same with that example. The Su-25 is an excellent Close-Air Support aircraft, even its American counter part the A-10 is expected to be in service well into the 2040's because it fills its intended role very well. Wether its Su-25 or A-10, there is no doubt we need an aircraft that fills this role. This doesn't have to be either, but the need for this type of aircraft is there imo.

 

[Bogeyman]

If one was to suggest 2 weeks ago that Turkey should get Su-25, everybody here would call him an idiot. But when the government decides that it should be done, suddenly it's a genius idea.

You people are sheep. Su25 is literally the worst military jet in the world. Gripen would eat it for breakfast. If I was a greek rafale pilot I wouldn't even waste a missile, I would close in and get an easy gun kill.

You are the real sheep here. No one claimed that the Su-25s would be taken as they are. We thought that TAI and ASELSAN could take it empty and fill it.

Everyone is aware that this is the only way for TAI to undertake such a business for modernization or purchasing. But no one guessed that you'd bury your head in the sand?

 

[BordoEnes]

Su 25 is garbage and so is your opinion



Doesn't matter, the airframe is shit, and we don't need it as we already have a project that can fill the same role which is Hürjet.

 

[Manomed]

There is no need for garbage Su-25s those jets get shotdown easily like drones even with older generation manpads I don't think Turkey buy any Su-25s

 

[Manomed]

@BordoEnes

Look, I get where you're coming from but at this point it would make more sense to modernize some F4s at least it's a supersonic aircraft for fucks' sake.

And if we're going to play with 50 year old garbage let's at least stick with our own garbage.

You are right F4s carry much more payload than su-25s as well

 

[Cypro]

@BordoEnes

Look, I get where you're coming from but at this point it would make more sense to modernize some F4s at least it's a supersonic aircraft for fucks' sake.

And if we're going to play with 50 year old garbage let's at least stick with our own garbage.

And where will Turkey get F4s or their parts? Fleet is shrinking day by day because of cannibalization. Probably that is another reason for looking an urgent stop gap for dedicated ground attack role.

Let's not forget! a lot of F16 modernisation is on the horizon F4s have their own problems, and Turkey will need some planes for daily tasks,especially for bombing the rats..

Gripen does not fit the requirement, CAS aircraft is needed to ease the burden of F16s.. With more payload than UAVs of course. Apparently neither UAVs like Akıncı nor Hürkuş could deliver more than one MK84. I wish they could have done Gören Projects for CAS

 

[Lool]

If one was to suggest 2 weeks ago that Turkey should get Su-25, everybody here would call him an idiot. But when the government decides that it should be done, suddenly it's a genius idea.

You people are sheep. Su25 is literally the worst military jet in the world. Gripen would eat it for breakfast. If I was a greek rafale pilot I wouldn't even waste a missile, I would close in and get an easy gun kill.

I dont really think that the Turkish Air Force commanders are dumb enough to buy a SU-25 tbh. I mean turkey has a strong defence industry that can renovate its own F16s to reach the 4.5 gen level by themselves
Even Ismail Demir stated that if they are REALLY backed into a corner, they may resort to such an option
Thus, the notion of buying SU-25 is just way too incomprehensible. I think Turkey will buy the airframe and engine from Georgia, equip it with its own avionics and then sell it to a third country

 

[TheInsider]

Oh how is the Özgür program going btw? We haven't been getting a lot of updates lately. Still waiting for that AESA?

Aselsan AESA radar integration on Akıncı TIHA will start by the end of 2021 and integration on F-16 will start in 2022. Özgür modernization will start in 2023 for block 30 F-16s.

Aselsan AESA radar contract was signed on 4 December 2018. According to the contract, phase 1 of the project will be completed in 48 months. Phase 1 covers design, development, prototype production, factory tests, qualification, and integration on F-16 Block 30. Phase 2 covers serial production and a serial production contract will be signed after the completion of phase 1.

 

[Zafer]

I dont really think that the Turkish Air Force commanders are dumb enough to buy a SU-25 tbh. I mean turkey has a strong defence industry that can renovate its own F16s to reach the 4.5 gen level by themselves
Even Ismail Demir stated that if they are REALLY backed into a corner, they may resort to such an option
Thus, the notion of buying SU-25 is just way too incomprehensible. I think Turkey will buy the airframe and engine from Georgia, equip it with its own avionics and then sell it to a third country

Why not use some of them for your own purposes while you are at it. They will have second hand value if you want to get rid of them. We don't have a platform made in the SU-25 speed range and its payload capacity.

 

[Nilgiri]

where we will get the Su-25 parts? kind of a dumb question don't you think?

I'm not sure about the amount of F4 parts we produce in Turkey but it has to be a lot since the US stopped making these planes a long time ago. We can definitely produce more. We certainly do not require congress approval to re-activate some retired F-4s

I skipped past lot of discussion (i.e just read your reply here and some others very briefly)....so sorry if some of this already talked about...

Are the Su-25 rumours really true though (likely to pan out etc)?

Or its part of some rumour mill thing for pressure generation etc?

Frogfoots make sense if you got them/inherited them cheap from USSR breakup.

Otherwise their MRO, weapons logistics for NATO/western-centric system country is going to be a unnecessary toll (dont let "compatibility" fool you too much).

Keep that stuff in hurjet, heli and UAV projects (esp network sensoring between these) for CAS.

A CAS hurjet variant is probably ideal if you need dedicated platform.

I remember long discussion I had many years back with retired USAF guy....and he told me yes in media there is lot of support for retaining A-10....but certain things have move deeply in CAS capability by sensoring that F-35 can do in that role.

Consider that this is A-10 which is far superior in every way to frogfoot.

Consider also the production has stopped:

Russia Discontinues Su-25 Production - Defense Security Monitor

A Russian official has announced that production of the Su-25 ground attack aircraft has stopped. Russia’s Industry and Trade Minister, Denis Manturov, announced on February 7, 2017 that the Russian …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

So where is turkey (hypothetically) planning to acquire the airframes, and how old are they? (this re-inserts into MRO costs and availability impact).

Hurjet-CAS is way to go. Is the interim requirement really that severe till its ready?

 

[Manomed]

I skipped past lot of discussion (i.e just read your reply here and some others very briefly)....so sorry if some of this already talked about...

Are the Su-25 rumours really true though (likely to pan out etc)?

Or its part of some rumour mill thing for pressure generation etc?

Frogfoots make sense if you got them/inherited them cheap from USSR breakup.

Otherwise their MRO, weapons logistics for NATO/western-centric system country is going to be a unnecessary toll (dont let "compatibility" fool you too much).

Keep that stuff in hurjet, heli and UAV projects (esp network sensoring between these) for CAS.

A CAS hurjet variant is probably ideal if you need dedicated platform.

I remember long discussion I had many years back with retired USAF guy....and he told me yes in media there is lot of support for retaining A-10....but certain things have move deeply in CAS capability by sensoring that F-35 can do in that role.

Consider that this is A-10 which is far superior in every way to frogfoot.

Consider also the production has stopped:

Russia Discontinues Su-25 Production - Defense Security Monitor

A Russian official has announced that production of the Su-25 ground attack aircraft has stopped. Russia’s Industry and Trade Minister, Denis Manturov, announced on February 7, 2017 that the Russian …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

So where is turkey (hypothetically) planning to acquire the airframes, and how old are they? (this re-inserts into MRO costs and availability impact).

Hurjet-CAS is way to go. Is the interim requirement really that severe till its ready?

We can easily put rocket pods etc on the hürjet why should we use the garbage su-25 you are right.

 

[LegionnairE]

I skipped past lot of discussion (i.e just read your reply here and some others very briefly)....so sorry if some of this already talked about...

Are the Su-25 rumours really true though (likely to pan out etc)?

Or its part of some rumour mill thing for pressure generation etc?

Frogfoots make sense if you got them/inherited them cheap from USSR breakup.

Otherwise their MRO, weapons logistics for NATO/western-centric system country is going to be a unnecessary toll (dont let "compatibility" fool you too much).

Keep that stuff in hurjet, heli and UAV projects (esp network sensoring between these) for CAS.

A CAS hurjet variant is probably ideal if you need dedicated platform.

I remember long discussion I had many years back with retired USAF guy....and he told me yes in media there is lot of support for retaining A-10....but certain things have move deeply in CAS capability by sensoring that F-35 can do in that role.

Consider that this is A-10 which is far superior in every way to frogfoot.

Consider also the production has stopped:

Russia Discontinues Su-25 Production - Defense Security Monitor

A Russian official has announced that production of the Su-25 ground attack aircraft has stopped. Russia’s Industry and Trade Minister, Denis Manturov, announced on February 7, 2017 that the Russian …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

So where is turkey (hypothetically) planning to acquire the airframes, and how old are they? (this re-inserts into MRO costs and availability impact).

Hurjet-CAS is way to go. Is the interim requirement really that severe till its ready?

is the interim requirement really that severe? definitely fucking not. We have tons of UAVs, Attack helicopters, etc. Many CAS options.

I think this whole Idea came from that old Su-25 factory in Georgia.

Tam.ge – Tam

www.tam.ge

They still have all the tooling to produce more, I think the Idea is to get an empty shell of an airframe from them, stick a ukrainian turbofan engine in it, frankenstein some Turkish avionics and weapons and tadaa you have a plane. Similiar to what we did with A129-T129 thingy.

I don't think this is reallistic at all for the TAF. If the ukrainians manage to make an afterburning turbojet engine, we'd be happy to stick it in Hürjet and call it a day. As for exports... who knows. We could make a Su-25TR and sell it to Azerbaijan or something But I don't think Azerbaijan needs more CAS planes either. They need a proper jet fighter.

 

[Nilgiri]

We can easily put rocket pods etc on the hürjet why should we use the garbage su-25 you are right.

Honestly hurjet is my favourite TR project to follow overall. It is one that most excites me and should excite many more ppl I think.

It will prove many things in TR aviation ecosystem to take to next phases. Very important things for later stuff like TF-X that you can establish in the here and now...in the shorter timeframe.

I understand overall requirement void (in Tur-AF due to the F-35 issue) that the 40 F-16 and upgrade of rest will fill for this decade and longer....as F-16s are a great multi-role platform.

Would be my first choice "squadron filler, power level need" stop gap and I would have pursued it far earlier (as pragmatic alternative when F-35 issue really exploded) if I was running Turkey.

But very specific things like CAS platform, SEAD/DEAD etc etc, TR shouldnt get eastern bloc systems. Just look at the deeper command and network systems Turkey uses....and why.

Ask a TEI and/or TAI engineer what MRO costs are for old and new stuff.....western bloc vs eastern bloc stuff.

The long term costs are just going to take money and time away from local ecosystem projects like hurjet-heli-mius etc.

Now political realm and influence shaping this stuff another way in reasoning....that I have little to nothing to comment on as I do not know that stuff.

I will just say this could be a rumour mill....I thought the S-400 thing was a rumour pressure mill as well when it first came up....and then boom it ripened past that. Damn.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Nilgiri

What you see here is a lack of leadership. When you don't have a direction you try to move in every direction.

A leader has a vision of where he wants to go, a charlatan, like the one that we have, doesn't have a vision, he just runs around in circles trying to convince people that he has a great plan. He doesn't.


Are we firends with Russia? Are we enemies? One day Russia is bombing our troops in Syria, the other day we're buying S400s, so do we want to become friends with Russia? No no we're supporting Ukraine.

Do we want F35? No we want F16

Hürjet or Su25? Why not both?

Sheep will defend this.