TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Heartbang]

Well, we probably can secure some amounts of F110s for the first batch, let's hope that engine development can be finished until 2033 and be integrated to Block 2, 2033 is a good time actually

not good enough to counter Greek f35s.

 

[Radonsider]

not good enough to counter Greek f35s.

Depends, your nozzle reflection won't be detected from the front, that's not a big concern also they won't receive their shiny F-35s before 2029-2030 because of the production queue

 

[Zafer]

Looking at the timeline of a simpler engine like TS1400; By the time the tests are completed and the serial production stage is reached we will at best see post 2033

I bet you are aware that Mr. Akşit says the first engine always takes longer to develop while subsequent engines cut the time by half. So looking at the timeline of TS1400 requires spacial looking glasses to evaluate it correctly. He even said the third engine developed takes even less time, for a note.

Development timeline of TF6000 will be telling.

 

[Rodeo]

I bet you are aware that Mr. Akşit says the first engine always takes longer to develop while subsequent engines cut the time by half. So looking at the timeline of TS1400 requires spacial looking glasses to evaluate it correctly. He even said the third engine developed takes even less time, for a note.

These are not engines that are subject to the same requirements.

 

[Windchime]

@Zafer
Yes the chief of the TAI says in fact that “by 2028 TR Motor will have completed the design development of the indigenous engine for TFX” .

Quote:
Öte yandan 2028’e kadar da iştirakimiz olan TR Motor şirketimiz yerli motoru geliştirmiş olacak.
Kaynak: haber.aero
unquote.

Since this design bureau doesn’t have capability to manufacture the completed design, it will be given to a third party manufacturing plant like TEI to produce the engine. Looking at the timeline of a simpler engine like TS1400; By the time the tests are completed and the serial production stage is reached we will at best see post 2033.

I don't know if it was from last year or the year before, but I've read an interview with (I think) Ismail Demir, where he said "2029 will be the year when Turkish turbofan will take to the skies for the first time" or something along those lines. So yes, that previous interview seems to reinforce your judgement.

 

[TheInsider]

"TRMotor will complete the development of the national engine by 2028". This doesn't tell a lot. We need to know the estimated first ignition date to better assess the situation.

 

[Windchime]

"TRMotor will complete the development of the national engine by 2028". This doesn't tell a lot. We need to know the estimated first ignition date to better assess the situation.

On the same interview I've mentioned above, 2026~2027 period was projected as the target for first ignition.

 

[Heartbang]

they won't receive their shiny F-35s before 2029-2030 because of the production queue

they will do their best to get priority delivery, and their chances are notable. Greek officials keep telling they'll get their planes after 2027

 

[Yasar_TR]

I bet you are aware that Mr. Akşit says the first engine always takes longer to develop while subsequent engines cut the time by half. So looking at the timeline of TS1400 requires spacial looking glasses to evaluate it correctly. He even said the third engine developed takes even less time, for a note.

Development timeline of TF6000 will be telling.

I really like and respect Dr Aksit. He is a rare gem this country has raised. But, at times, he loves blowing his own trumpet a bit too much. At the same time no matter what he says about what TEI can do; Proof of the pudding is in the eating. We are seeing the process of how long it takes to develop an engine before it can be in serial production and flying planes in numbers.
TS-1400 has a turbine entry air temperature of 1350degrees C. Maximum temperatures they have attained with it is around 1400degrees Celcius. For the 30000+lbf class engine we are looking to install in TFX, turbine entry temperature will be in excess of 1650degrees Celsius.
Just because we managed to apply single Crystal technology to a relatively small turbine blade at much lower temperatures doesn‘t mean that same will happen for a much larger blades under hotter conditions. Any engineer including Dr Aksit will tell you that it is a different situation as the conditions change. We are still in the process of building TF6000. It is a relatively simpler and smaller engine too. It is an engine much less than a third of the size of the engine we are envisaging for TFX in terms of power output, and new TFX engine should be more than double the diameter of a TF6000.
You have to think of all eventualities. You can’t put all your eggs in one basket by thinking that indigenous engine route is the “only” route. You need to have alternative plans. RR/Kale, TEI/GE ……

 

[GoatsMilk]

In English there is a saying; “Beggars can’t be choosers”
When translated in to one’s own language it is crude and rather demeaning. But in English when used in context it is just a way of expressing that when you have no other choice you have to accept what you are given.
We have no way of producing a stealthy turbofan engine that will propel TFX and be ready for serial production before post 2033. Even then it is a bit suspect. The only option we have in hand at the moment is RR/Kale producing an engine. If they want to hang on to IP rights, let them. But the important point is to produce an engine freely for our plane and have no restrictions on sale to third parties.
The know how and experience we will gather from the production of this engine will pave the way to the production of our own indigenous turbofan engine, just like CT-800 being produced under license paved the way for TS-1400.

The geopolitical question has to be fully explored and taken into account. Otherwise we risk another s400/F35 fiasco.

The government should take into account where she thinks she may need to militarily act in the next 20 to 30 years and whether any of these places will be a prime excuse for our western partners to sanction and embargo us over.

Should we need to act and should the sanctions be inevitable, have we created a contingency for what we do to cover the time frame until we can produce our own?

For example its obvious to me that Turkey will find herself more and more involved in syria and iraq for at least another 10 years if not more, will this be reason enough to be sanctioned over again?

What happens if we end up fighting a small war with greece over her demands to control the entire aegean sea?

Turkey doesn't have the luxury to put all her eggs in one basket.

When it comes to engines for fighter jets, how many countries can produce them today?

 

[Enderun]

The geopolitical question has to be fully explored and taken into account. Otherwise we risk another s400/F35 fiasco.

The government should take into account where she thinks she may need to militarily act in the next 20 to 30 years and whether any of these places will be a prime excuse for our western partners to sanction and embargo us over.

Should we need to act and should the sanctions be inevitable, have we created a contingency for what we do to cover the time frame until we can produce our own?

For example its obvious to me that Turkey will find herself more and more involved in syria and iraq for at least another 10 years if not more, will this be reason enough to be sanctioned over again?

What happens if we end up fighting a small war with greece over her demands to control the entire aegean sea?

Turkey doesn't have the luxury to put all her eggs in one basket.

When it comes to engines for fighter jets, how many countries can produce them today?

If you say it is unreasonable and illogical, Turkey should say yes to everything that is said. You looked at the question between Turkey and America and Europe from the point of view of the Greeks or the peoples who are the country's enemies.

 

[Zafer]

it is a different situation as the conditions change

Turbine blades will be under more stress but there will be more real estate on them to use for better cooling too.

After all it is supposed to be produced within Türkiye and RR will only help design it. So where will the blades come from if not Tübitak/TEI. Will Kale make them, of course not. We have to develop the turbine blade technology inside Tübitak and hand them to TEI as has been done for the TS1400.

 

[GoatsMilk]

If you say it is unreasonable and illogical, Turkey should say yes to everything that is said. You looked at the question between Turkey and America and Europe from the point of view of the Greeks or the peoples who are the country's enemies.

I say the best way to win, to succeed is weigh up every possibility and to act accordingly to what brings the most benefit to the Turkish nation. A leader who goes round constantly saying "I was deceived" is not fit for purpose.

Sometimes what appears as minor mistakes made today in the long run can turn out to be fatal.

As for "beggars cannot be choosers" that to a certain degree is our position, but it does not mean that future calculations over future possibilities should not analysed and contingency made, just in case sanctions and embargoes hit us, which i 99% feel they will.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turbine blades will be under more stress but there will be more real estate on them to use for better cooling too.

After all it is supposed to be produced within Türkiye and RR will only help design it. So where will the blades come from if not Tübitak/TEI. Will Kale make them, of course not. We have to develop the turbine blade technology inside Tübitak and hand them to TEI as has been done for the TS1400.

You seem to be stuck in “indigenous engine” mode. And cannot go past it.
We know it is of utmost importance and our priority and that it needs to be done sooner than later.
But you have to think of all eventualities and realities. Otherwise you end up with another Altay fiasco on your lap.
If RR/Kale are going to produce an engine, it’s critical parts that we currently can not manufacture (And there are and will be quite a few of these), will come from RR. When gradually our expertise in these technologies improve they will be replaced with Turkish manufactured parts, provided this is definitely put in to the contract.
This is exactly what has happened with T-700 Blackhawk engines. First lot of engines had hot parts belonging to GE. Now including the turbine blades almost all critical hot parts are being manufactured in house at TEI. Even the innovative single part combustion chamber that is produced with 3D additive technologies. (This is the part Dr Aksit, rightfully, was boasting about being a single unit instead of it being made up of 13 different parts)
So please go past this “indigenous, indigenous“ repetition, and see the bigger picture. We all want the same thing.; Our TFX flying with our engines. But to get there we need to cover ourselves from all angles against all eventualities.

 

[I_Love_F16]

When will TAI finally disclose their stealth UAV ?

 

[Cenkcnk]

Are they working on one?

 

[Zafer]

You seem to be stuck in “indigenous engine” mode. And cannot go past it.
We know it is of utmost importance and our priority and that it needs to be done sooner than later.
But you have to think of all eventualities and realities. Otherwise you end up with another Altay fiasco on your lap.
If RR/Kale are going to produce an engine, it’s critical parts that we currently can not manufacture (And there are and will be quite a few of these), will come from RR. When gradually our expertise in these technologies improve they will be replaced with Turkish manufactured parts, provided this is definitely put in to the contract.
This is exactly what has happened with T-700 Blackhawk engines. First lot of engines had hot parts belonging to GE. Now including the turbine blades almost all critical hot parts are being manufactured in house at TEI. Even the innovative single part combustion chamber that is produced with 3D additive technologies. (This is the part Dr Aksit, rightfully, was boasting about being a single unit instead of it being made up of 13 different parts)
So please go past this “indigenous, indigenous“ repetition, and see the bigger picture. We all want the same thing. Our TFX flying with our engines. But to get there we need to cover ourselves from all angles against all eventualities.

Indigenous is the final stop, you can not get past it.

RR involvement is rather an impediment than a boost in the way of going indigenous as the financial cost of it can get in the way of domestic development. In the worst case eventuality indigenous development timeline get extended an additional 5 years during which we can use a variety of planes made with the upcoming TF6000 engine and possibly with the intermediate developmental varieties of the TFX engine. RR deal is more of political value than technical, I will not dwell on this as it is a preference.

 

[Manomed]

Indigenous is the final stop, youpossibly withet past it.

RR involvement is rather an impediment than a boost in the way of going indigenous as the financial cost of it can get in the way of domestic development. In the worst case eventuality indigenous development timeline get extended an additional 5 years during which we can use a variety of planes made with the upcoming TF6000 engine and possibly with the intermediate developmental varieties of the TFX engine. RR deal is more of political value than technical, I will not dwell on this as it is a preference.

you are delusional

 

[TheInsider]

TS-1400 has a turbine entry air temperature of 1350degrees C. Maximum temperatures they have attained with it is around 1400degrees Celcius. For the 30000+lbf class engine we are looking to install in TFX, turbine entry temperature will be in excess of 1650degrees Celsius.

This is right to some extent, but you are comparing apples with oranges. You should compare TS-1400 with CTS800. A turbofan engine suitable for TFX is inherently different than a turboshaft engine. I don't think current single crystal blades will have any problems up to ~1600 degrees celsius when used in a turbofan engine. Bigger turbine blades mean better heat dissipation and better cooling channels can be applied to the blade when there is more area to play with.

Don't forget we can sit at the same table with RR and ask for ridiculous things because of our own single crystal technology. Even if we get a deal with RR the engine will be produced with Turkish single crystal blades as no company would offer their own blade technology for a foreign engine.

 

[Zafer]

Turns out that the F110 engine's

Turbine inlet temperature: 2,750 °F (1,510 °C)

If we can handle 1600 °C we have safely mastered the art and science of it.
Turns out that 1600 °C was the record temperature in quite recent year of 2011, by MHI.

If we are already in this ballpark we are good to go. And this will only increase in the coming years.