TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Ripley]

I tried earlier to explain why Kaan must have a gun on a basic principle that it was still a fighter

If they revised the design to strip the gun off, well, I don’t know.
A gun is the last resort for a fighter pilot and it’s up close and personal.

I remember a documentary where many veteran Israeli pilots of Arab - Israeli conflicts mention how things got out of hand quickly when their python AA missiles failed occasionally and they suddenly found themselves in a dogfight to death with their opponents. And all they got left was the gun and their skills as fighter pilots.

Also let’s remember how the USAF envisioned the Cold War.
According to contemporary doctrine, high altitude Soviet bombers would penetrate Western air space and to counter them all they needed was the newly developed AA missiles. In fact, they bet so heavily on them that they believed there was no room for guns anymore in that new era where they would be engaging their opponent on such long ranges thanks to their AAs.
And we all know how it went, like Hasanrize said, when they had to engage MIGs with the deadly 23mm guns.

Short version; as long as there is man in the cockpit, things might get out of hand and you need to protect him/her with a last resort weapon.
Hope they didn’t remove the gun.

Sorry, this turned out to be a long piece.

And @Windchime, later on, unrelated to my post, put up more modern tactical concerns about the dogfight, saying “ACM, AOA (and to an extent instantaneous turn rate) based point and shoot is far more important than traditional turn rate based dog fighting.”

Bringing up examples from half a century ago doesn't help at all. Firstly there's much more context behind the failure of missile-centric doctrine in Vietnam. Secondly, since Desert Storm not a single air-to-air engagement was done with guns, bar the sole example of an A-10 shooting down Iraqi helo.

Moreover in modern ACM, AOA (and to an extent instantaneous turn rate) based point and shoot is far more important than traditional turn rate based dog fighting.

For me it was educational I must admit.

But somehow I can’t get it out of my head this unforeseen nightmare of a scenario where a KAAN pilot would be out of options when he/she ran out of missiles or malfunction of those and forced into a dogfight by an agile 1/2 or 1 generation older pure fighter!

I can not even dream a KAAN pilot, or any 5th gen pilot for that matter, would like to get into a close quarter dogfight before he would exhaust his state of the art options of taking an opponent down from far far away.

But I said it earlier. The gun is up close and personal and it is a last ditch effort and it should be there to assure the pilot that a fighter pilot never gives up.

 

[boredaf]

If your 5th generation jet that has A2A missiles with ranges from 10s of kms to 100s of kms comes within "dogfighting" range of an enemy aircraft someone must've really, really fucked up. And any pilot who goes into that range *after* using all of their missiles has to be suicidal. These are jets that are worth up to 100 million, there is absolutely no need to put them in any situation that would require them to engage the enemy that close.

I'd rather they use the payload a cannon and its ammunition would take for something more useful.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Chill, my friends. We'll have Kızılelmas to sic on dogfighting targets. Think of the battleground on a more holistic level.

 

[Ripley]

If your 5th generation jet that has A2A missiles with ranges from 10s of kms to 100s of kms comes within "dogfighting" range of an enemy aircraft someone must've really, really fucked up. And any pilot who goes into that range *after* using all of their missiles has to be suicidal. These are jets that are worth up to 100 million, there is absolutely no need to put them in any situation that would require them to engage the enemy that close.

I'd rather they use the payload a cannon and its ammunition would take for something more useful.

Well, my 5th gen preferably will dictate the rules and distance of the engagement and yes my pilot would be an idiot engaging in a close quarter fight with his opponents before exhausting his bvr and other A2A engagement options and he should be grounded and then taken off combat missions, if he survives.
So, nowhere did I say that a 5th gen pilot should rush to a dogfight at all times.

Actually, I pointed out this myself in my post

I can not even dream a KAAN pilot, or any 5th gen pilot for that matter, would like to get into a close quarter dogfight before he would exhaust his state of the art options of taking an opponent down from far far away.

I believe you missed the picture here.
We always believe that 5th gen fighters will dictate the air combat. And why not? That’s the whole idea behind those beasts. That’s what they are defined and designed for.

My supposition totally based on a dire situation where KAAN will not be able to set the game rules and accordingly will be forced to play its opponent’s game.

 

[Ravager]

Let me put some old wisdom here ... Everything that could go wrong definetely would go fubar someday . And brothers ..... Better to have things that thou don't need rather than needing it and yet you don't have it ....


Prepare for a rainy days fellas ...

 

[fushkee]

Every news and every reports are great. But first of all we should solve the engine problem!I think 3 type of engines will solve our platform needs. TF-10000, TF-20000 and TF-35000

 

[UcanTost]

A fighter without a cannon is like a bird without wings, a ship without a port, a car without a wheel.

it needs to have a cannon its a fighter and stealth as well what do you mean no cannon and stop giving me TSK didnt ask for it excuse

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Defense Industry Vice President Serdar Demirel:

We will have good news on the joint production of the KAAN aircraft.



Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/ekonomi/tu...ma-sanayisindeki-isbirligi-guclenecek/2907097

 

[what]

A fighter without a cannon is like a bird without wings, a ship without a port, a car without a wheel, a female without a penis.

it needs to have a cannon its a fighter and stealth as well what do you mean no cannon and stop giving me TSK didnt ask for it excuse

Not sure if that was on purpose.

 

[bisbis]

Defense Industry Vice President Serdar Demirel:

We will have good news on the joint production of the KAAN aircraft.



Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/ekonomi/tu...ma-sanayisindeki-isbirligi-guclenecek/2907097

What is your mouth saying? This is bomb news. Here's the news we've been waiting for. Now our defense industry will progress faster.

Elhamdülillâhi rabbil âlemin.

 

[bisbis]

I think we should make a low-visibility single-engine aircraft that can compete with the F35 as soon as possible.

 

[bisbis]

Horrible news. KAAN shouldn't be shared with anybody except Azerbaijan.

We have to sell! primarily for money. Our country has to earn money to pay for the costs incurred for Kaan and then to develop 6th generation aircraft. If we don't sell it, someone else will. Thus, our competitors will become stronger. We have to sell Kaan and increase our political, economical and military influence in that region.

Kaan can produce certain parts for the aircraft in Azerbaijan.

 

[Baryshx]

We have to sell! primarily for money. Our country has to earn money to pay for the costs incurred for Kaan and then to develop 6th generation aircraft. If we don't sell it, someone else will. Thus, our competitors will become stronger. We have to sell Kaan and increase our political, economical and military influence in that region.

Selling is one thing, co-production is another. Pakistan comes to mind again. But looking at recent relations, Malaysia and Indonesia have come to the fore. Also, a joint production involving several countries is possible.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Selling is one thing, co-production is another. Pakistan comes to mind again. But looking at recent relations, Malaysia and Indonesia have come to the fore.

The turkish MIC motto should be: Selling, no teaching.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Horrible news. KAAN shouldn't be shared with anybody except Azerbaijan.

No, this is very good news. Actually only way for us. This move is imperative for us, both financially and technologically.

5th and 6th generation fighters are considered flying supercomputers. While the F-16 is just a flying computer, these are flying supercomputers. I would prefer to put the "Kaan Flying Supercomputer" into service as soon as possible, using Malaysia's existing chip production capacity, rather than relying on a chip factory whose date of operation is uncertain.

There is no need to even talk about it financially. T.R. The Central Bank's Coffers are empty!

 

[what]

Live on TV, a bit late but still on. They brought the entire entourage this time.

 

[cr33pt3d]

Live on TV, a bit late but still on. They brought the entire entourage this time.

damn those are the dumbest journalist on TV. just could not watch those morons asking stupid questions. is it that hard for such big channels like CNN to have a journalist specialised in defence issues. Turkish defence industry deserves better. what a shame. i feel for Mr Demir, having such patience with those dumb questions, how can he keep his calm is beyond me. allah sabır versin

 

[demir283]

damn those are the dumbest journalist on TV. just could not watch those morons asking stupid questions. is it that hard for such big channels like CNN to have a journalist specialised in defence issues. Turkish defence industry deserves better. what a shame. i feel for Mr Demir, having such patience with those dumb questions, how can he keep his calm is beyond me. allah sabır versin

bruh , It's not specialized TV programma for defense industries. It;s globe scale and majority watchers has no idea what they are looking . that's why the stupid Questions. so chill. ...

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

damn those are the dumbest journalist on TV. just could not watch those morons asking stupid questions. is it that hard for such big channels like CNN to have a journalist specialised in defence issues. Turkish defence industry deserves better. what a shame. i feel for Mr Demir, having such patience with those dumb questions, how can he keep his calm is beyond me. allah sabır versin

What I can't stand is when the journalists almost never letting the others finish their sentences...

 

[neosinan]

Utterly confused. We were talking about 30 mm cannons a short while ago, now this. Not to mention its a bad call.

What happened?

Over the last year, Ukrainian war happened, And Picture is clear and Turkish air force is well aware of air battles happening over there.

Recent (iirc pentagon or think tank) report was clear, even though Russia failed in Sead/Dead mission, R33 is extremely deathly long range a2a missile, And R77 or Amraam is not a viable response to it. And US needs meteor/R33 like a2a missile ASAP. And Dog fight is death, long range a2a is the new king. And It looks like, Kaan is taking form according to these new needs as consequences of this war. This is good news and shows, We are following war very closely, we are shaping our projects accordingly,