Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[this is crunch]

Damen? nope, to many drama for 104 dan 90

what drama, was'nt our current AH140 having more drama than those?

Just want to ask something to u guys:
Have you guys ever thinking about this ship?
Omega Class? Good ship, eh?

i would say if the price makes sense, we could go for it, but considering there are already proven old player available, such as FREMM and AH140 we better play safe,

but if somehow in the future if our current basic need is fulfilled and wants something new, we could go for it

Evolved further into this:

NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN
she doesnt even have hull mounted sonar, unless if we go for our own modification based on same hull, fitting those underwater and surface sensor and armament to the destroyer style, i couldn't refuse that.

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696033442960695368

Bro, what did you smoke?

 

[chibiyabi]

what drama, was'nt our current AH140 having more drama than those?

expensive, and the most important think, you want the succes story from korean LPD repeated for damen products, and you can't do it.

 

[Anmdt]

MIDLAS has the same canister size as mk41, right?

Rumored to be longer but remaining is the same or close.

 

[this is crunch]

expensive,

I dont understand, ever since, i see our navy procurement program is reasonable and understandable. Let's say fact here.

1. Diponegoro class corvette / Sigma 9113 is costed for € 170 mln. https://news.detik.com/berita/d-824042/kri-diponegoro-365-seharga-170-juta-euro-tiba-di-tanjung-priok#:~:text=Harga satu kapal 170 juta,(40 km/jam).

2. Martadinata class light frigate / Sigma 10514 ffbnw + TOT, bear the price $ 220 mln each

SIGMA 10514 Guided Missile Frigate, PKR - Perusak Kawal Rudal

www.globalsecurity.org

Now lets compare it to this

1. Morrocan Navy Sigma 10513 (one ship) and 9813 (two ship) with total cost of € 510 mln, if divided for 3 ship roughly €170 mln.

Sigma class Corvette

www.globalsecurity.org

2. Colombian Navy Sigma 10514, 4 ship for $ 2 billion, means $ 500 mln for each

Colombia inks deal that could see Damen build five Sigma frigates

The price for each fully fitted frigate is expected to be about $400 million.

www.defensenews.com

Now then, all i see is the price of each ship is not really far away from the similar dimension and size from other navy, and with this i conclude that its not expensive as you say, its reasonable.

expensive, and the most important think, you want the succes story from korean LPD repeated for damen products, and you can't do it.

Also, i am by no mean a Damen pushover or something like that. i just wants to say, if its a good ship and our navy likes it then why not? it's seems you have bad predisposition to Damen.

 

[chibiyabi]

I dont understand, ever since, i see our navy procurement program is reasonable and understandable. Let's say fact here.

1. Diponegoro class corvette / Sigma 9113 is costed for € 170 mln. https://news.detik.com/berita/d-824042/kri-diponegoro-365-seharga-170-juta-euro-tiba-di-tanjung-priok#:~:text=Harga satu kapal 170 juta,(40 km/jam).

2. Martadinata class light frigate / Sigma 10514 ffbnw + TOT, bear the price $ 220 mln each

SIGMA 10514 Guided Missile Frigate, PKR - Perusak Kawal Rudal

www.globalsecurity.org

Now lets compare it to this

1. Morrocan Navy Sigma 10513 (one ship) and 9813 (two ship) with total cost of € 510 mln, if divided for 3 ship roughly €170 mln.

2. Colombian Navy Sigma 10514, 4 ship for $ 2 billion, means $ 500 mln for each

Colombia inks deal that could see Damen build five Sigma frigates

The price for each fully fitted frigate is expected to be about $400 million.

www.defensenews.com

Now then, all i see is the price of each ship is not really far away from the similar dimension and size from other navy, and with this i conclude that its not expensive as you say, its reasonable.



Also, i am by no mean a Damen pushover or something like that. i just wants to say, if its a good ship and our navy likes it then why not? it's seems you have bad predisposition to Damen.

compare to what mado says for fregat merah putih, with mor complex hull arround 278 million US...damen products for indo all of them FWBNW..plus no flexibility like korean LPDs

 

[Lordimperator]

compare to what mado says for fregat merah putih, with mor complex hull arround 278 million US...damen products for indo all of them FWBNW..plus no flexibility like korean LPDs

what "no flexibility"? would you mind to tell

 

[chibiyabi]

what "no flexibility"? would you mind to tell

damen don't gave us right to produce n sell the ship to other countries..

 

[this is crunch]

compare to what mado says for fregat merah putih, with mor complex hull arround 278 million US...damen products for indo all of them FWBNW..plus no flexibility like korean LPDs

madoka never said it was $ 278 mln

its was from this

Indonesia Lays Keel of First 'Red White' Frigate - Naval News

On August 25, PT PAL Indonesia laid the keel of the first Red White Frigate for the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL).

www.navalnews.com

@Gary isn't each frigaye costing $278 millions? How is that much VLS and weapon systems are possible with such modest budget?

Got a set of different budget for the armament, in this case for arms government has set aside more than 700 Millions US dollar

Don't know but this guy mention around 1,1 billion US dollar fund for the whole project, my bad if ITS true so they actually set aside around 600 milion US dollar for armament

Tantangan Program Kapal Perang Fregat Arrowhead 140 Indonesia

Kementerian Keuangan telah menyetujui Pinjaman Luar Negeri US$ 1,1 miliar untuk membiayai akuisisi dua fregat Arrowhead 140 yang didesain Babcock, Inggris.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

even on the latter madoka sent the link mentioning the program costing around $ 1.1 biln

 

[this is crunch]

damen don't gave us right to produce n sell the ship to other countries..

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i know, ever since the begining of the TOT program for both of the LPD and the Light Frigate, we never asked for the rights to produce and sell the product to other country.

The PT. PAL's LPD export to Phillipines in 2014 and now 2023, is PT. PAL own design, developed and based on from the TOT of the previous 4 Makassar class from Daesun Shipbuilding South Korea.

 

[Soman45]

It's unusual for his channel to upload a long video today

of course with a bit promotion for Scorpene

 

[Lordimperator]

It's unusual for his channel to upload a long video today

of course with a bit promotion for Scorpene

For Blue Water Navy 2024++ rumoured: trieste LHD, 2ndhand ddg (Atago), more FFG Omega 6000,...

 

[this is crunch]

Speaking about LPD, if we see on wikipedia, LPD Tarlac and Hospital Ship class on average need about 13-18 month to build each, meanwhile, PT PAL itself said to build AH140 will took about 69 month each.

This means recent PH LPD that just begun first steel cutting few weeks ago will finish within 18 month or earlier, and then the second LPD will took place to build and finish even before the first AH140 launched.

 

[NEKO]

Speaking about LPD, if we see on wikipedia, LPD Tarlac and Hospital Ship class on average need about 13-18 month to build each, meanwhile, PT PAL itself said to build AH140 will took about 69 month each.

This means recent PH LPD that just begun first steel cutting few weeks ago will finish within 18 month or earlier, and then the second LPD will took place to build and finish even before the first AH140 launched.

IIRC PAL can build BRS in less than a year, 8 months I think. Excl. fitting out.
Klo ga salah inget sih.

 

[Soman45]

With the ambition for blue water navy, can we assume that the concept of TNI-AL's blue water navy already taken shaped? LHD as flagship or even CV? also what is this 80 bill that some of formilers talking about? is there any additional funds that we don't know? @Madokafc

 

[Madokafc]

With the ambition for blue water navy, can we assume that the concept of TNI-AL's blue water navy already taken shaped? LHD as flagship or even CV? also what is this 80 bill that some of formilers talking about? is there any additional funds that we don't know? @Madokafc

Well, i am already giving hints about Indonesian navy aspiration to have flat top assets in near future. And also on how they would pursue Surface combatant Warships assets first as fleet escort

For the next kind of MEF like program funding they still formulated what they need and how to achieved that

 

[Gary]

Meski pengertiannya bervariasi, istilah ini secara umum berarti pasukan yang dimaksud mampu melakukan pelayaran jarak jauh.

While there's a plan to equip TNI with carriers/LHD, I think some are missing in the overall idea.

Operating LHD/Carrier and being able to sail far doesn't equate = blue water navy.

Bluewater means your navy operates ( not just merely sails) in all oceans regularly. Merely able to project power in a seasonal fashion is not blue water at all. All Blue Water or aspiring blue water navies have to have at least a foreign port very far away from home willing to support their naval operations both in peacetime and most importantly in war, We don't have that and are not even trying to have one.

If using over-simplistic measures of what defines a blue water navy, the Iranian navy is a blue water navy after its recent successful world tour with its Moudge + tanker task force.

imo at best, if everything goes right. TNI will be a 4th rank blue water navy or closer to green water navy.

 

[NEKO]

While there's a plan to equip TNI with carriers/LHD, I think some are missing in the overall idea.

Operating LHD/Carrier and being able to sail far doesn't equate = blue water navy.

Bluewater means your navy operates ( not just merely sails) in all oceans regularly. Merely able to project power in a seasonal fashion is not blue water at all. All Blue Water or aspiring blue water navies have to have at least a foreign port very far away from home willing to support their naval operations both in peacetime and most importantly in war, We don't have that and are not even trying to have one.

If using over-simplistic measures of what defines a blue water navy, the Iranian navy is a blue water navy after its recent successful world tour with its Moudge + tanker task force.

imo at best, if everything goes right. TNI will be a 4th rank blue water navy or closer to green water navy.

We don't have overseas bases to support far away deployment, maybe we can start with Africa.

 

[Madokafc]

We don't have overseas bases to support far away deployment, maybe we can start with Africa.

You should have open port Treaty like what US, France, UK and China do with several small countries in Indian ocean, pacific Islander and Africa

Small gesture like economy cooperation and infrastructure support is way to open relationship


But Blue Water Navy is all about power projection capability, even when you don't have much foreign military base but you also can compensated it with sufficient logistic support tools and more better vessels in term of endurance and resupply

 

[Gary]

We don't have overseas bases to support far away deployment, maybe we can start with Africa.

This is what I said, We don't have any port far from Indonesia to support the fleet, as for Africa, they'll want something in return and it must be very expensive.

Without an overseas supporting base, blue water navy is just a pipe dream. Not even the fleet logistics ship is adequate to support such a large force far away from home. If you look CSG 21, the Royal Navy stops for once in a while in friendly ports (Greece's Souda bay, US's Guam) to replenish and limited maintenance. Look closely at the CSG-21 because whatever carrier we would operate likely is non-nuclear powered and it burns a lot of fuel just to sustain the carrier not including its escort, flight ops and many more + our carrier wouldn't likely exceed QE2 class in size and fuel bunker size.

So yeah at best I'm expecting Green water navy, this is just from the perspective of endurance, not yet counting know-how in operating far from home. Having a carrier doesn't automatically elevate you to blue water status, you'll need to demonstrate that you're qualified first just like China.