TR Air Defence Programs

[Huelague]

TAF will recieve new AD Systems in the coming Years like Hisar-A +/O+ and Siper, but what is with Gürz and Gökdemir ?

Or Sapan.

 

[Sanchez]

Or Sapan.

Sapan is for navy and is in works.

 

[Anmdt]

Sapan is for navy and is in works.

SİPER ve HİSAR Hava Savunma Sistemlerinde Seri Üretim Dönemi

SSB ile hava savunma sistemleri kapsamında ASELSAN payı 18.5 milyar TL tutarında olan sözleşme ve sözleşme değişikliği imzalandı.

www.defenceturk.net

Only referring to the part related to Sapan; that label was previously used for RAM and now ESSM equilavent. Both fall under the PDSM category, but different profiles. I wonder why the name has changed, recently.

Although it does start to get confusing with the code names as in; Hisar-RF-D-Block number-ER. Sapan/Sapan B2/Sapan-ER seems simpler, but still, why take an already assigned name.

 

[TheInsider]

Those are probably for export market.
Initially, it doesn't look like Turkish Armed Forces are interested in these systems.

No. TSK will buy Gürz.
Land Forces ordered truck version of Hisar-A+ (FFS) for modernized Oerlikon batteries. Note that the truck version of Hisar-A+ and O+ is the same and can launch both A+ and O+ IIR missiles. Hence, it is theoretically possible for modernized Oerlikon batteries to also launch O+ IIR missiles without any modifications.
Land Forces ordered an armored vehicle version of Hisar-A+ for armored brigades The armored vehicle version of Hisar-A+ will be delivered in low numbers. This system can't launch O+ IIR missiles. It works as a single vehicle single battery hence dubbed as autonomous. It doesn't need anything other than itself to fulfill all its functions. The truck version of Hisar-A+ needs an AIC (Fire control vehicle). AIC has a MAR search radar (X band, 70km) and an AKR-D illumination radar (ka band, 30km).
Land forces Hisar-O+ orders will be in standard 3x launcher vehicle (FFS) configuration with Kalkan 2(x band, 120km) as their main sensor.

Gürz probably be available starting from 2025-2026. I expect it to mature quickly. I expect AURA AESA to appear in 2024 which will be the main sensor of Gürz. It will work similarly to armored Hisar-A+ single vehicle single battery configuration and will be given to mechanized infantry and armored brigades.

Airforce will probably buy the Gökdemir system(Turkish NASAMS).

 

[boredaf]

Hence, it is theoretically possible for modernized Oerlikon batteries to also launch O+ IIR missiles without any modifications.

I think you're a bit confused there mate, because Oerlikon is just 35mm aa guns and not a missile system. The modernisation just allows it to use the same radar as Hisar, I think.

 

[TheInsider]

I think you're a bit confused there mate, because Oerlikon is just 35mm aa guns and not a missile system. The modernisation just allows it to use the same radar as Hisar, I think.

Read and look at this picture again.

 

[boredaf]

Read and look at this picture again.

Those are not Oerlikon "batteries" those guns are Oerlikon guns, built by MKE and modernised by Aselsan

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

urunler.mke.gov.tr

https://www.aselsan.com/en/defence/product/2297/35-mm-modernized-towed-guns

I don't what that launcher is, but it isn't a part of Oerlikon aa system. It is either Hisar or something else.

 

[Anmdt]

Those are not Oerlikon "batteries" those guns are Oerlikon guns, built by MKE and modernised by Aselsan

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

urunler.mke.gov.tr

https://www.aselsan.com/en/defence/product/2297/35-mm-modernized-towed-guns

I don't what that launcher is, but it isn't a part of Oerlikon aa system. It is either Hisar or something else.

At some point, Hisar-A has been conceptually incorporated into Oerlikon batteries (for base protection), but then it was said that Hisar-A wouldn't be part of it. I am not sure of the current situation, however given the specifications and duties of the A+ missile, it should be part of the Oerlikon battery. As I recall, Hisar-A also has the towed version, which seems reasonable for the earlier statement.
But man, I have grown old and my memory is weak and I lack the search skills.

 

[TheInsider]

You are wrong. That launcher is a Hisar-A FFS launcher and is part of the modernized Oerlikon battery.
Here you can read this.

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ATES_IDARE_CIHAZI_TR.pdf

"The AIC System is an air defence system developed for the effective air defence of critical facilities and fixed military units.
defence system. The AIC system will undertake the fire and command control of the 35 mm towed air defence guns modernised by ASELSAN and the Low Altitude Air Defence Missile Launch System (HİSAR-A FFS), which is also being developed by ASELSAN within the scope of the HİSAR project."

Hisar-A FFS is basically the same thing with Hisar-O FSS the only difference is one is loaded with Hisar-A+ missiles the other is loaded with Hisar-O+ missiles.

Here is the proof.

Those are not Oerlikon "batteries" those guns are Oerlikon guns, built by MKE and modernised by Aselsan

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

MAKİNE ve KİMYA ENDÜSTRİSİ A.Ş

urunler.mke.gov.tr

https://www.aselsan.com/en/defence/product/2297/35-mm-modernized-towed-guns

I don't what that launcher is, but it isn't a part of Oerlikon aa system. It is either Hisar or something else.

Land forces chose to distribute a low amount of Hisar-A FFS to Oerlikon batteries and mix Oerlikons with Hisar-A to achieve a cost-effective solution. Land forces freed up the budget and used most of the budget to get Hisar-O+ batteries with this approach.

 

[boredaf]

You are wrong. That launcher is a Hisar-A FFS launcher and is part of the modernized Oerlikon battery.
Here you can read this.

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ATES_IDARE_CIHAZI_TR.pdf

"The AIC System is an air defence system developed for the effective air defence of critical facilities and fixed military units.
defence system. The AIC system will undertake the fire and command control of the 35 mm towed air defence guns modernised by ASELSAN and the Low Altitude Air Defence Missile Launch System (HİSAR-A FFS), which is also being developed by ASELSAN within the scope of the HİSAR project."

Hisar-A FFS is basically the same thing with Hisar-O FSS the only difference is one is loaded with Hisar-A+ missiles the other is loaded with Hisar-O+ missiles.

Here is the proof.

Land forces chose to distribute a low amount of Hisar-A FFS to Oerlikon batteries and mix Oerlikons with Hisar-A to achieve a cost-effective solution. Land forces freed up the budget and used most of the budget to get Hisar-O+ batteries with this approach.

Again, Oerlikon 35mm guns were modernized to use the same fire control system to be used with aa missile batteries, but they are not an inseparable part of them. We just put 35mm guns with Hisar batteries under the same control system to make them operate together. They also operate completely separately as they do for us and dozen or so countries around the world. It's semantics at this point, let's agree to disagree mate.

 

[TheInsider]

Again, Oerlikon 35mm guns were modernized to use the same fire control system to be used with aa missile batteries, but they are not an inseparable part of them. We just put 35mm guns with Hisar batteries under the same control system to make them operate together. They also operate completely separately as they do for us and dozen or so countries around the world. It's semantics at this point, let's agree to disagree mate.

Again no. AİC can only command a single Hisar-A FFS. You can't set up Hisar-A batteries with AİC because commanding a gun and a missile launcher is inherently different. Read the document again. That is why, the Hisar-O+ system which has the same FFS as Hisar-A+, has a separate command control vehicle and a better sensor.

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ATES_IDARE_CIHAZI_TR.pdf

"The capability to undertake the firing and command control of 3 35 mm towed air defence guns and 1 low altitude air defence missile launch system"

 

[Saithan]

Well sounds like they’ve created an independant little AD layered system that can be deployed quick. Which situations would it be ideal ?

loitering ammo, ucav, in forward positions ?

 

[Kartal1]

Well sounds like they’ve created an independant little AD layered system that can be deployed quick. Which situations would it be ideal ?

loitering ammo, ucav, in forward positions ?

Situation Name: SHTF in Syria and we need point defence for our bases

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

IDEF 2023 - Roketsan unveils its Burç mobile air defence gun-missile system - EDR Magazine

IDEF 2023: At the Roketsan stand two mobile systems were on display, one antitank, and one air defence known as Burç.

www.edrmagazine.eu

Is Burç forseen as replacement for KMS ?

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1744327794526388271

 

[Nutuk]

Is Sapan Hisar-D?

Yes, navalized Hisar RF

 

[AlterUnd]

Yes, navalized Hisar RF

Is Sapan Hisar-D?

No, it is the nametag of Fire Control System (Mk91-92 like, i suppose). (as stated by Defence Turkey)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1747939953667977380

 

[Anmdt]

Good news from SSB about SAPAN Air Defense Missile

Making a speech at the ceremony, Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün announced that the SAPAN Air Defense Missile will soon enter the inventory. SAPAN was developed by Roketsan based on the HİSAR-RF Air Defense Missile used in the HİSAR-O+ Air Defense System. The SAPAN Missile, which will be fired from the National Vertical Launch Launcher System (MIDLAS) integrated into the TCG İSTANBUL Frigate (F-515), has also been made suitable for naval combat conditions.

SSB'den SAPAN Hava Savunma Füzesi müjdesi | SavunmaSanayiST

SAPAN Hava Savunma Füzesi, Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri envanterine girmeye gün sayıyor. Gelişmeyi, Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün duyurdu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I recall that the SAPAN project was titled as 'Surface to Air Defense Missile Project' over 5-6 years ago. Currently, it covers the Fire Control System developed by Aselsan (that rumored to control both ESSM and Hisar-D) and the Missile System developed by Roketsan. It was originally a PMADS (that covers any Point Defense missile, from one perspective) system and was initially in the form of a RAM missile. The name was later allocated for the ESSM equivalent, which has caused some confusion.

 

[uçuyorum]

I recall that the SAPAN project was titled as 'Surface to Air Defense Missile Project' over 5-6 years ago. Currently, it covers the Fire Control System developed by Aselsan (that rumored to control both ESSM and Hisar-D) and the Missile System developed by Roketsan. It was originally a PMADS (that covers any Point Defense missile, from one perspective) system and was initially in the form of a RAM missile. The name was later allocated for the ESSM equivalent, which has caused some confusion.

It's also a magnetic launch system for munitions

 

[Heartbang]

Booster-laden quad-packed ESSM proposal.

This is most likely what the Hisar-D / Sapan will eventually look like.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1748451140360888593