TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Angry Turk !!!]

We all know that the delays have nothing to do with Altay being a good tank or not. The design and everything else is already there for everybody to see. The problem is with establishing the manufacturing line in which serial production should start. While every year since the last decade we are talking about Altay serial production to start "next year" our soldiers are moving with M60A3s in Syria.

First it was that Otokar's offer was too expensive, then the German embargo, then it was the lack of national powerpack, then it is British powerpack, no wait... Lets try the Korean one, then there is no factory, then there is a factory, but almost ready, then there is factory, but.......

Altay is the biggest fiasco of the Turkish Defence Industry!

The upgrade programs for our older crap are the same way. There is an upgrade package, it is too expensive, lets put the best armor in the world, lets put another turret, lets put this, lets put that, active protection integration... almost, everything is almost ready, signing the contract, not exactly, almost signing it, signing it at last and then? The result is the same. A couple M60TMs for the cameras here and there and when HTS attack Azez we are showing force with two of these:

View attachment 64972

What happens after that? The result is below. The sons of three mothers burned like candles inside and a fourth that will have to live with the trauma of seeing all this. What would their mothers tell us after we told them the story of our failure in both Altay and the supposed upgrades?

How are we so relaxed while we are talking of conquering cities like Ain Al-Arab, Manbij, Hasakah, Tal Rifat? People are even talking about the liberation of Aleppo... How can we be so relaxed while a regional war is forming, the main fighting ground is in countries in which we have a double digit number of military bases and all of the actors in this scenario (for now) are responsible for bombing these exact bases directly or non-directly resulting in hundreds of martyrs and crippled?

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Instead of waiting or hoping, what about getting our shit together, upgrade at least all existing M60A3s in inventory and give the f*cking super-duper alien technology tank to someone who is actually capable of producing it? For example the only company that produced and delivered multiple tanks to its customer.

Yes their (FNSS) output may not be 100 units per month, but till 2073 they may deliver the first batch of 250 Altays which is actually pretty close to the timeframe in which BMCs serial production would just be about to be ready to almost start, but then the price and the lack of laser blaster APS and shiet... Haha, not haha!

I am sick of ultra-modern prototypes with sci-fi fire extinguishing systems, KBRN ventilation, low silhouette, front engine, back engine, super-duper Bor armor, unmanned turrets, integrated drones, alien APS technology, modular (a modern term), state of the art (even more modern term), "the best of the best in their class" tanks and armored vehicles being displayed at shows, fests, exhibitions while my soldiers are burning alive in M60s due to a team of goat scratchers with a total IQ of 13, firing a missile that they probably got in return for 10 cows and a 2000$ in cash, utilizing technology from the time of my father or even worse... A rocket sold for 150$ at the stand for female cosmetics in Raqqa utilizing technology from the time of my grandfather. I am just sick of all this.

This message is not directed to you, but at the ones responsible for this shameful situation. I sincerely apologize if you felt offended, it is not the point that I want to make.

Heads should have been rolling a long time ago.

 

[B_A]

I would like Altay to be delayed longer if it will be a better tank in the end. I like it to be a hybrid drive if it will not add more than a year to the development.

We all know that the delays have nothing to do with Altay being a good tank or not. The design and everything else is already there for everybody to see. The problem is with establishing the manufacturing line in which serial production should start. While every year since the last decade we are talking about Altay serial production to start "next year" our soldiers are moving with M60A3s in Syria.

First it was that Otokar's offer was too expensive, then the German embargo, then it was the lack of national powerpack, then it is British powerpack, no wait... Lets try the Korean one, then there is no factory, then there is a factory, but almost ready, then there is factory, but.......

Altay is the biggest fiasco of the Turkish Defence Industry!

The upgrade programs for our older crap are the same way. There is an upgrade package, it is too expensive, lets put the best armor in the world, lets put another turret, lets put this, lets put that, active protection integration... almost, everything is almost ready, signing the contract, not exactly, almost signing it, signing it at last and then? The result is the same. A couple M60TMs for the cameras here and there and when HTS attack Azez we are showing force with two of these:

View attachment 64972

What happens after that? The result is below. The sons of three mothers burned like candles inside and a fourth that will have to live with the trauma of seeing all this. What would their mothers tell us after we told them the story of our failure in both Altay and the supposed upgrades?

How are we so relaxed while we are talking of conquering cities like Ain Al-Arab, Manbij, Hasakah, Tal Rifat? People are even talking about the liberation of Aleppo... How can we be so relaxed while a regional war is forming, the main fighting ground is in countries in which we have a double digit number of military bases and all of the actors in this scenario (for now) are responsible for bombing these exact bases directly or non-directly resulting in hundreds of martyrs and crippled?

View attachment 64974
View attachment 64973
View attachment 64975

Instead of waiting or hoping, what about getting our shit together, upgrade at least all existing M60A3s in inventory and give the f*cking super-duper alien technology tank to someone who is actually capable of producing it? For example the only company that produced and delivered multiple tanks to its customer.

Yes their (FNSS) output may not be 100 units per month, but till 2073 they may deliver the first batch of 250 Altays which is actually pretty close to the timeframe in which BMCs serial production would just be about to be ready to almost start, but then the price and the lack of laser blaster APS and shiet... Haha, not haha!

I am sick of ultra-modern prototypes with sci-fi fire extinguishing systems, KBRN ventilation, low silhouette, front engine, back engine, super-duper Bor armor, unmanned turrets, integrated drones, alien APS technology, modular (a modern term), state of the art (even more modern term), "the best of the best in their class" tanks and armored vehicles being displayed at shows, fests, exhibitions while my soldiers are burning alive in M60s due to a team of goat scratchers with a total IQ of 13, firing a missile that they probably got in return for 10 cows and a 2000$ in cash, utilizing technology from the time of my father or even worse... A rocket sold for 150$ at the stand for female cosmetics in Raqqa utilizing technology from the time of my grandfather. I am just sick of all this.

This message is not directed to you, but at the ones responsible for this shameful situation. I sincerely apologize if you felt offended, it is not the point that I want to make.

I think the the large budget didnt went to our Armor force.

In addition to the air force, navy missile,and drones, the army's budget mainly focuses on infantry equipment and artillery.

PARS or Arma is ready but didnt replace the old ACV15.

 

[Kartal1]

I think the the large budget didnt went to our Armor force.

In addition to the air force, navy and drones, the army's budget mainly focuses on infantry equipment and artillery.

PARS or Arma is ready but didnt replace the old ACV15.

I don't know what they are focusing on, but 2024 better be the acquisition year as some pointed out. Our armor fleet needs refreshing. Tanks are one side of the things, but to be more relevant to the thread I have to point out that we have also a big problem regarding IFV acquisition. Both the asymmetric and conventional threats to our country require urgent refreshing of our IFV fleet. For example @Zafer is on the opinion of not using tanks other than in full scale war. While I usually won't agree, lets pretend I agree with him. We can't have the luxury of eliminating the IFVs also. Our infantry needs direct fire support.

As I showed an example of an M60A3 being hit I will show a picture of a ACV-15. The result is shocking. I will not list everything we need in the terms of subsystems and increased survivability as we went trough these discussions many times before. The problem is that we need them now. Not in 2030 or whatever.

 

[B_A]

I don't know what they are focusing on, but 2024 better be the acquisition year as some pointed out. Our armor fleet needs refreshing. Tanks are one side of the things, but to be more relevant to the thread I have to point out that we have also a big problem regarding IFV acquisition. Both the asymmetric and conventional threats to our country require urgent refreshing of our IFV fleet. For example @Zafer is on the opinion of not using tanks other than in warfare. While I usually won't agree, lets pretend I agree with him. We can't have the luxury of eliminating the IFVs also. Our infantry needs direct fire support.

As I showed an example of an M60A3 being hit I will show a picture of a ACV-15. The result is shocking. I will not list everything we need in the terms of subsystems and increased survivability as we went trough these discussions many times before. The problem is that we need them now. Not in 2030 or whatever.

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Armor force maybe not so important for the victory of war right now but it cost many soldiers’ life in war. Russian maybe cost thousands of live because of their old vehicle.

We, at least hundreds in these ten years.

 

[Zafer]

Maybe unmanned tanks should be factored in. You can make them from available component options in all sizes. Another option is to try and make tanker humanoid robots to take out the human casualty issue. Other nations must be thinking hard about this.

 

[UkroTurk]

Guys why we all have forgotten about 30 ton heavyweight IFV while everyone is focusing on ALTAY MBT?

Still we can't see mass production of 30 ton IFV?

Since producing 30 ton vehicle easier than 60tons MBT, why there is no next gen heavy IFV? Again Powerpack problems?

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Guys why we all have forgotten about 30 ton heavyweight IFV while everyone is focusing on ALTAY MBT?

Still we can't see mass production of 30 ton IFV?

Since producing 30 ton vehicle easier than 60tons MBT, why there is no next gen heavy IFV? Again Powerpack problems?

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Regarding M-60, the new Turret from Roketsan weight only 13 Tons, the older Turret 14,5 Tons.

Why Stronger Engine is needed?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632031083263930368

These IFV are important, here in this Video everyone can see the Effects they have even on the most modern Russian T-90 M. With the right Turret they can even used as light Tanks, it's urgent to modernize the Tank and IFV Fleet !

 

[Aqerdf]

Original M60A3 does have 750hp engine if i remember correctly. Even without the TIYK-M60 mod it needs better engine. Roketsan's brochure is either mentions just the turret part or complete mod. Probably just turret. With hull additions, weight should be same with vanilla A3 or one or two tonnes more.

Likes of Otokar Arma-II, Pars Alpha, Pars IV, Pars Scout 8x8 and BMC Altuğ is using 600 hp to 800+hp engines. And we fielded a 700hp Ecotorq engine only in 2023, with foreign transmission. 600+hp Azra would be ready in 2025 if i remember correctly from last BMC CEO.

Likes of Tulpar and Kaplan NG or whatever new vehicle comes from these three companies again is using 700+ to 1000+hp engines, which we don't have and can't procure from foreign companies.

Both of these two deals are waiting new designs or some changes and more domestic components/subcomponents. Powerpack is included too i think.

Regarding ACVs, our best course of action is applying both ZMA-15 & ACV-15 modernization to all vehicles.

This vehicle in the picture is either destroyed by AT mine or Artillery afaik. Mentioned modernisation is handle personnel's mine survivability and gives some sort of artillery & mortar crew survivability.

Together with purchasing Kaplan-10 in carrier variation, fastest is applying these two mods.

Afaik these mods are only applied to old tower user ZMA's and some closed turret user ACVs. ACVs going to stay more years i think, we have thousands of M113s. They should be out from manned duties.

And we need more Kirpi-IIs me thinks, in addition to these...

 

[Kartal1]

Guys why we all have forgotten about 30 ton heavyweight IFV while everyone is focusing on ALTAY MBT?

Still we can't see mass production of 30 ton IFV?

Since producing 30 ton vehicle easier than 60tons MBT, why there is no next gen heavy IFV? Again Powerpack problems?

View attachment 64980
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I love it! That's what we are talking about. We have thousands of outdated M113/ACV-15s in inventory. Instead of slowly but steadily phasing them out of inventory, replacing them with 30t (we even have 40t wheeled Boxer competitor in the face of Pars Alpha 8x8) IFVs or/and lighter more modern platforms for different roles we are getting this... 134 units of this. An "urgent need" they say.

Likes of Otokar Arma-II, Pars Alpha, Pars IV, Pars Scout 8x8 and BMC Altuğ is using 600 hp to 800+hp engines. And we fielded a 700hp Ecotorq engine only in 2023, with foreign transmission. 600+hp Azra would be ready in 2025 if i remember correctly from last BMC CEO.

Likes of Tulpar and Kaplan NG or whatever new vehicle comes from these three companies again is using 700+ to 1000+hp engines, which we don't have and can't procure from foreign companies.

Both of these two deals are waiting new designs or some changes and more domestic components/subcomponents. Powerpack is included too i think.

Regarding ACVs, our best course of action is applying both ZMA-15 & ACV-15 modernization to all vehicles.

This vehicle in the picture is either destroyed by AT mine or Artillery afaik. Mentioned modernisation is handle personnel's mine survivability and gives some sort of artillery & mortar crew survivability.

Together with purchasing Kaplan-10 in carrier variation, fastest is applying these two mods.

Afaik these mods are only applied to old tower user ZMA's and some closed turret user ACVs. ACVs going to stay more years i think, we have thousands of M113s. They should be out from manned duties.

And we need more Kirpi-IIs me thinks, in addition to these...

They must find a powerpack alternative urgently! Talk to whoever they need, pay whatever they need to pay, but this can't continue like this. We can clearly say that our current armor fleet is outdated. By the looks of it the backbone of our armor will look almost the same in 2030.

We are the second biggest army in NATO, a country with military bases on several continents, a burning backyard, cocky neighbors and a couple of friendly countries that we should be able to support. TSK and especially the Turkish Land Forces is not a thing you want to gamble with. Close to 55.000 is the number of soldiers deployed abroad in protection of Turkish interests and this number will only rise and not lower. How are we going to support these souls? The situation is just unbelievable.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

I love it! That's what we are talking about. We have thousands of outdated M113/ACV-15s in inventory. Instead of slowly but steadily phasing them out of inventory, replacing them with 30t (we even have 40t wheeled Boxer competitor in the face of Pars Alpha 8x8) IFVs or/and lighter more modern platforms for different roles we are getting this... 134 units of this. An "urgent need" they say.

View attachment 64983

They must find a powerpack alternative urgently! Talk to whoever they need, pay whatever they need to pay, but this can't continue like this. We can clearly say that our current armor fleet is outdated. By the looks of it the backbone of our armor will look almost the same in 2030.

We are the second biggest army in NATO, a country with military bases on several continents, a burning backyard, cocky neighbors and a couple of friendly countries that we should be able to support. TSK and especially the Turkish Land Forces is not a thing you want to gamble with. Close to 55.000 is the number of soldiers deployed abroad in protection of Turkish interests and this number will only rise and not lower. How are we going to support these souls? The situation is just unbelievable.

This leadership rather wastes god knows how many billions a year to illegal aliens instead of the Army, go figure...

 

[TheInsider]

I would like Altay to be delayed longer if it will be a better tank in the end. I like it to be a hybrid drive if it will not add more than a year to the development.

IT won't be a better tank in the end. It doesn't matter if we upgrade the electronics again. The doctrine and the tank design itself is outdated.

 

[TheInsider]

BMCs factory will be ready in 2025 but it won't instantly chunk out 1500hp engines. There will be training, trial production, etc. Similar to the TOGG factory.

 

[UkroTurk]

IT won't be a better tank in the end. It doesn't matter if we upgrade the electronics again. The doctrine and the tank design itself is outdated.

If they added OMTAS ATGM on the turret of Otokar Tulpar or FNSS Kaplan 30ton IFV, the 30 ton vehicle with 30mm auto cannon and 2 OMTAS would be safer, more lethal and more efficient than current modernized M60s.
Until ALTAY have been mass produced, such IFV would help a lot.
They should have also added ATGMs on modernized m113IFVs with unmanned turret, but they didn't... Although it wouldn't be a complicated and expensive solution.

 

[Zafer]

IT won't be a better tank in the end. It doesn't matter if we upgrade the electronics again. The doctrine and the tank design itself is outdated.

Every technology gets outdated in a few short years, you need to settle for one at some point to make it go live.

I think a drone carrier vehicle deploying drones that can ferry a single ammunition to a target can replace tanks. These drones are eVTOL drones that can fly like 20 minutes and ferry explosives to the door of the target. Most suitable for urban warfare.

 

[Huelague]

If they added OMTAS ATGM on the turret of Otokar Tulpar

They did already.

 

[Tornadoss]

If they added OMTAS ATGM on the turret of Otokar Tulpar or FNSS Kaplan 30ton IFV, the 30 ton vehicle with 30mm auto cannon and 2 OMTAS would be safer, more lethal and more efficient than current modernized M60s.
Until ALTAY have been mass produced, such IFV would help a lot.
They should have also added ATGMs on modernized m113IFVs with unmanned turret, but they didn't... Although it wouldn't be a complicated and expensive solution.
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Yeah they definitely need some ATGM with the IFV. There was an animation for CV-90 where they were targeting the tanks sensors first with airburst ammunition to eliminate the APS and then firing the ATGM to eliminate the tank itself. Not a bad concept if you are able to ambush the tank.

 

[UkroTurk]

They did already.

Yeah absolutely. İ forgot about Otokar.
But Otokar Tulpar is black goat . Would they choose Koç's Tulpar?
But AFAIK FNSS Kaplan30's turret doesn't have ATGMlauncher.

Laser guided relatively cheaper UMTAS ATGMS would be great for IFVs. Nightmare of MBTs.

They could engage slow and low flying air targets such as helicopters, UAVs.

Roketsan - L-UMTAS Laser Guided Long-Range Anti-Tank Missile System

www.roketsan.com.tr

 

[Stimpy75]

Black Goat? assembling with parts from all over the world except from home and then beeing labeled as such ? Good!
If you could plz tell me how % of the Tulpar is from Türkiye, then i will apologize ofc

 

[Tornadoss]

Black Goat? assembling with parts from all over the world except from home and then beeing labeled as such ? Good!
If you could plz tell me how % of the Tulpar is from Türkiye, then i will apologize ofc

Can not talk about Tulpar but they claimed to increased the localization percentage on the Amra II. So, if it would be a requirement for the Tracked-IFV tender they would have also done the same with Tulpar.

ARMA II | 8x8 Tekerlekli Zırhlı Araç | Otokar Savunma

8x8 taktik tekerlekli zırhlı araçları, Otokar'ın dünya çapındaki lojistik desteği ile de en zor zamanlarda bile daima Silahlı Kuvvetlerimizin yanında.

defense.otokar.com.tr

The ARMA II, whose localization rate has been increased, plays an important role in reducing Turkey's foreign dependence in land systems. ARMA II features a suspension system and transfer case designed and produced by Otokar with its own resources, while national design and locally produced subsystems, including the cooling package, are preferred.
ARMA II is offered to users with two different engine options, one of which is indigenous.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Otokar Arma entered Service with Yener Mine Detection System, do we also rely on foreign Engines for Arma ?

ASELSAN's Yener GPR Entered the Inventory with OTOKAR ARMA
1 min read
9 December, 18:38

ASELSAN's Yener GPR Entered the Inventory with OTOKAR ARMA
ASELSAN's GPR and Otokar's ARMA 8x8 vehicle entered the inventory for the first time in Turkiye with YENER Modern Mine Detection System project.
Anadolu News Agency published a comprehensive news article about the project that ASELSAN CEO Ahmet Akyol announced on his account on November 23.
ASELSAN developed the Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) to detect and identify mines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs) for the YENER Project. YENER, which can work when the connected platform is moving or stationary, can cooperate with the GERGEDAN electronic jamming and suppression system. The system can be integrated into armoured vehicles or unmanned ground vehicles.

ASELSAN's Yener GPR Entered the Inventory with OTOKAR ARMA | TURDEF

ASELSAN's GPR and Otokar's ARMA 8x8 vehicle entered the inventory for the first time in Turkiye with YENER Modern Mine Detection System project.

www.turdef.com