TR Air Defence Programs

[Nutuk]

This is a very interesting system.

We know that SAGE is working on a A2A cost effective mini-missile called Akdogan. It is supposed to be the smaller version of Bozdogan. They aim at integrating it to UCAVs and Hurjet so it can serve as a cost effective weapon used mainly against drones and helicopters.

Most probably it will fill the gap between Sungur and Bozdogan in terms of range.

There are many platforms on which it can possibly be integrated together with a small AESA radar.

I am 99% sure that we will also see this as a module to the modular platform of GURZ. If fired in salvo mode I think it may also be very effective against swarm drones.

I have a question. Do you guys think that GURZ with integrated Akdogan missile, Gokberk laser weapon, its turret and a suitable radar can act as a C-RAM in a point defence scenario?

There is already the Levent missile, maybe the air to air version will be called Akdogan??

 

[Quasar]

if I am not wrong

Levent - Roketsan

Akdoğan - Tübitak Sage

 

[Anmdt]

Our Bozdogan, on the other hand, weighs 140 kg

Despite its weight, Bozdoğan has more kinematic capabilities, higher speed, acceleration and longer range. And when it comes to close-in air defence, engagement time (acceleration and maximum speed, and remaining kinematic capabilities after motor shut down) is more crucial than anything else. I was in favour of Bozdoğan from the beginning and I still am.

In the foreseeable future, we will see other PDMS evolving in the same way (RAM, Chinese systems and so on), becoming more agile and achieving longer ranges. Bozdoğan could have been slimmed down by Tübitak (hence the Akdoğan) for missile threats, but this project was "stopped" for some reasons. Tübitak was in progress of developing a soft-launched VL version along with soft-launch VLS, which still has a great market share - someone, somehow has stopped them. This doesn't smell good to me.

I believe that air-to-air missiles are not and should not be Roketsan's area of expertise. We have seen the negative results of an aggressive attitude in other fields within Defense Industry and it has not helped us so far. Because in Turkey, the aggressive attitude does not make a company work harder or more efficiently, but rather leads to blocking others from succeeding in certain areas in order to cover their lack of progress. We have needed this missile for years, Tübitak has stepped in to provide a working system in a relatively short time (ignore the stand-alone system made by Aselsan, we could drop the radars and put this system on the Ada class), but somehow someone has "blocked" them. And yet, as of now, we have no certain data on the Levent system.

I had to express myself because I am fed up with this duality in every area of the defence industry and how these supposedly cooperating companies and institutes, although they are part of the same foundation or are supported by the state (hence the taxes), compete with each other for bureaucratic and selfish reasons of the managers.​

 

[Anmdt]

if I am not wrong

Levent - Roketsan

Akdoğan - Tübitak Sage

There is no Akdoğan anymore, at this stage I even doubt if Tübitak's smart ammunition network project exists. I would willingly start a petition to convict those who forced the cancellation of these projects as traitors. I see no good intentions here.​

 

[Sanchez]

Midlas:
"In the future, work is also underway on land-based versions for base and port protection."

Türk donanması "milli hava savunma" yeteneği için gün sayıyor

Türk donanması, Milli Dikey Atım Lançer Sistemi (MİDLAS) ile "milli hava savunma" yeteneği kazanıyor. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Anmdt]

Midlas:
"In the future, work is also underway on land-based versions for base and port protection."

Türk donanması "milli hava savunma" yeteneği için gün sayıyor

Türk donanması, Milli Dikey Atım Lançer Sistemi (MİDLAS) ile "milli hava savunma" yeteneği kazanıyor. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Turkish Navy;
Been there, seen it give me the common systems among all platforms so i can train and rotate personnel easily.

Turkish Army;
A'la carte!

 

[Afif]

Is it really worth it though? Expensive VLS on land when truck mounted launchers for AD missiles are more cost effective and survivable.

 

[Baryshx]

Despite its weight, Bozdoğan has more kinematic capabilities, higher speed, acceleration and longer range. And when it comes to close-in air defence, engagement time (acceleration and maximum speed, and remaining kinematic capabilities after motor shut down) is more crucial than anything else. I was in favour of Bozdoğan from the beginning and I still am.

In the foreseeable future, we will see other PDMS evolving in the same way (RAM, Chinese systems and so on), becoming more agile and achieving longer ranges. Bozdoğan could have been slimmed down by Tübitak (hence the Akdoğan) for missile threats, but this project was "stopped" for some reasons. Tübitak was in progress of developing a soft-launched VL version along with soft-launch VLS, which still has a great market share - someone, somehow has stopped them. This doesn't smell good to me.

I believe that air-to-air missiles are not and should not be Roketsan's area of expertise. We have seen the negative results of an aggressive attitude in other fields within Defense Industry and it has not helped us so far. Because in Turkey, the aggressive attitude does not make a company work harder or more efficiently, but rather leads to blocking others from succeeding in certain areas in order to cover their lack of progress. We have needed this missile for years, Tübitak has stepped in to provide a working system in a relatively short time (ignore the stand-alone system made by Aselsan, we could drop the radars and put this system on the Ada class), but somehow someone has "blocked" them. And yet, as of now, we have no certain data on the Levent system.

I had to express myself because I am fed up with this duality in every area of the defence industry and how these supposedly cooperating companies and institutes, although they are part of the same foundation or are supported by the state (hence the taxes), compete with each other for bureaucratic and selfish reasons of the managers.​

Since Gürcan Okumuş left, there has been silence from Tübitak Sage. There is no information about the products.

There is a different way of looking at it here.

Türk Savunma Sanayisinde Yönetimler Değişiyor, Halûk GÖRGÜN Damgasını Vuruyor: Michigan OUT, Rensselaer Polytechnic IN | Stratejik Araştırmalar Merkezi - STRASAM.ORG ®

Yazar, Türk Savunma Sanayisinde Yönetimler Değişiyor, Halûk GÖRGÜN Damgasını Vuruyor: Michigan OUT, Rensselaer Polytechnic IN iddiasını anlatıyor.

strasam.org

 

[akrepon]

So Haluk Gorgun wants more serial production instead of spending more time in prototyping which sounds good for me.

 

[Zafer]

I would say the more ambitious the better.

 

[UkroTurk]

ASELSAN GÜRZ is the optimal Short range Air Defense and CIWS option for Turkish Navy.
I wish I class frigates to have.
I wish Ada-Class corvettes to have.
TN Please hear me

 

[uçuyorum]

ASELSAN GÜRZ is the optimal Short range Air Defense and CIWS option for Turkish Navy.
I wish I class frigates to have.
I wish Ada-Class corvettes to have.
TN Please hear me
View attachment 66323

Eh for ships we have already tested stuff like Yalman on IDA, how difficult would it be to just add vehicle mounted version of sungur on all ships? Hisar should have its own launchers anyway.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766428302045008374

Russian army shot down 2 new air defense systems in Donetsk

- Nasam HSS radar
- S-300 battery

The solution found by the Russians works. Drones produced with fiber optic cables cannot be blocked by Ukrainian electronic warfare and air defense systems. 9th HSS was hit within 1 month

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766443292793704847

In this attack, 3 S-300 HSS equipment belonging to the Ukrainian army were destroyed.

Russian Osint group claims to be lost armor Patriot, but the image quality is very poor


Some friends did not believe that wired kamikaze UAVs were a truly balance-changing solution. However, even the Patriot missile defense system now has the possibility of being hit.

So, I'm eagerly waiting for your solution suggestion, folks.
Instead of underestimating the threat, it is now time to think about serious solutions.


@Kartal1 @Anmdt @Afif @TR_123456 @UkroTurk @Zafer @Kaan Azman @Sanchez

 

[Radonsider]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766428302045008374

Russian army shot down 2 new air defense systems in Donetsk

- Nasam HSS radar
- S-300 battery

The solution found by the Russians works. Drones produced with fiber optic cables cannot be blocked by Ukrainian electronic warfare and air defense systems. 9th HSS was hit within 1 month

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766443292793704847

In this attack, 3 S-300 HSS equipment belonging to the Ukrainian army were destroyed.

Russian Osint group claims to be lost armor Patriot, but the image quality is very poor


Some friends did not believe that wired kamikaze UAVs were a truly balance-changing solution. However, even the Patriot missile defense system now has the possibility of being hit.

So, I'm eagerly waiting for your solution suggestion, folks.
Instead of underestimating the threat, it is now time to think about serious solutions.


@Kartal1 @Anmdt @Afif @TR_123456 @UkroTurk @Zafer @Kaan Azman @Sanchez

Only solution I can think of is widespread use of radars and hard-kill solutions (let it be whatever you want)

 

[TR_123456]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766428302045008374

Russian army shot down 2 new air defense systems in Donetsk

- Nasam HSS radar
- S-300 battery

The solution found by the Russians works. Drones produced with fiber optic cables cannot be blocked by Ukrainian electronic warfare and air defense systems. 9th HSS was hit within 1 month

This is bs,such a small drone can never be on such an altitude(take a good look).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766443292793704847

In this attack, 3 S-300 HSS equipment belonging to the Ukrainian army were destroyed.

Russian Osint group claims to be lost armor Patriot, but the image quality is very poor


Some friends did not believe that wired kamikaze UAVs were a truly balance-changing solution. However, even the Patriot missile defense system now has the possibility of being hit.

So, I'm eagerly waiting for your solution suggestion, folks.
Instead of underestimating the threat, it is now time to think about serious solutions.

Dont know about this one,maybe but still highly doubtful.
So,they dont have ''spotters''?
I still dont think its that drone,need more proof.

 

[Kartal1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766428302045008374

Russian army shot down 2 new air defense systems in Donetsk

- Nasam HSS radar
- S-300 battery

The solution found by the Russians works. Drones produced with fiber optic cables cannot be blocked by Ukrainian electronic warfare and air defense systems. 9th HSS was hit within 1 month

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766443292793704847

In this attack, 3 S-300 HSS equipment belonging to the Ukrainian army were destroyed.

Russian Osint group claims to be lost armor Patriot, but the image quality is very poor


Some friends did not believe that wired kamikaze UAVs were a truly balance-changing solution. However, even the Patriot missile defense system now has the possibility of being hit.

So, I'm eagerly waiting for your solution suggestion, folks.
Instead of underestimating the threat, it is now time to think about serious solutions.


@Kartal1 @Anmdt @Afif @TR_123456 @UkroTurk @Zafer @Kaan Azman @Sanchez

To be honest I was thinking a lot about fiber optic cable on UGVs, but didn't think about it on UAVs.

I am curious about the launch point of these drones. I think they need more preparation and dedicated equipment so they can be launched especially en masse. Also I am wondering about the range of these UAVs and what are the possibilities about the implementation of a swarm concept when it comes to fiber optics communication.

Of course ISR is very important in order to identify possible launch sites and do preemptive strikes, but a real solution would be a hybrid soft kill and hard kill system so a measure is present in all spectrums. Small AESA radar and air bursting munition creating clouds of pellets would do a good job. I think that such a solution would do a good job against widely seen swarm formations, but if the swarm decide to split the system may be overwhelmed. We should develop a solution that can deal with simultaneous attacks from multiple directions it can be done either by integrating multiple turrets facing different directions or a low range missile, agile and cheap enough it can be fired in salvos. For the range in which these drones operate and conduct their ISR operations I think 40mm air bursting programmable munition should be enough.

 

[Bogeyman]

This is bs,such a small drone can never be on such an altitude(take a good look).



Dont know about this one,maybe but still highly doubtful.
So,they dont have ''spotters''?
I still dont think its that drone,need more proof.

We'll wait and see now. But Ukraine does not have the luxury of waiting, that's for sure.

 

[Zafer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766428302045008374

Russian army shot down 2 new air defense systems in Donetsk

- Nasam HSS radar
- S-300 battery

The solution found by the Russians works. Drones produced with fiber optic cables cannot be blocked by Ukrainian electronic warfare and air defense systems. 9th HSS was hit within 1 month

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1766443292793704847

In this attack, 3 S-300 HSS equipment belonging to the Ukrainian army were destroyed.

Russian Osint group claims to be lost armor Patriot, but the image quality is very poor


Some friends did not believe that wired kamikaze UAVs were a truly balance-changing solution. However, even the Patriot missile defense system now has the possibility of being hit.

So, I'm eagerly waiting for your solution suggestion, folks.
Instead of underestimating the threat, it is now time to think about serious solutions.


@Kartal1 @Anmdt @Afif @TR_123456 @UkroTurk @Zafer @Kaan Azman @Sanchez

Scout and take out their operators preemptively.

 

[Bogeyman]

Scout and take out their operators preemptively.

View attachment 66336
View attachment 66337

https://www.meteksan.com/files/yep_yeni_brosurler/retinar_ptr_x_1.pdf

If we could launch RETİNAR PTR-X from the reconnaissance vehicle with a cable UAV that can carry a 50-60 kg payload, this human detection range would increase 2-3 times. Here we are talking about detecting soldiers from 10-15 km. Only in this way can you reduce the kamikaze UAV threat against tanks by increasing situational awareness beyond vision.

I agree with you too. However, this requires a robust solution that can monitor large areas in real time. I created a projection in the other heading.

 

[Afif]

To be honest I was thinking a lot about fiber optic cable on UGVs, but didn't think about it on UAVs.

I am curious about the launch point of these drones. I think they need more preparation and dedicated equipment so they can be launched especially en masse. Also I am wondering about the range of these UAVs and what are the possibilities about the implementation of a swarm concept when it comes to fiber optics communication.

Of course ISR is very important in order to identify possible launch sites and do preemptive strikes, but a real solution would be a hybrid soft kill and hard kill system so a measure is present in all spectrums. Small AESA radar and air bursting munition creating clouds of pellets would do a good job. I think that such a solution would do a good job against widely seen swarm formations, but if the swarm decide to split the system may be overwhelmed. We should develop a solution that can deal with simultaneous attacks from multiple directions it can be done either by integrating multiple turrets facing different directions or a low range missile, agile and cheap enough it can be fired in salvos. For the range in which these drones operate and conduct their ISR operations I think 40mm air bursting programmable munition should be enough.

Yeah, we already know the adequate solution. Which is SP radar guided AAA guns equiped with programmable ammunition. Like Kurkut, Skynex, etc.

But the issue seems to be the number disparity. The drones are coming in hundreds of thousands, while these systems are being procured at several dozens. Hence nowhere near sufficient to provide AD coverage across the battlefield for all types of formations from intantry, armor to artillery in the back.

To fight such war against drones you need the kind of mass that armies had in 1970s/1980s. For exmaple, Turkish army only bought 13 Kurkut systems. When they should have bought at least 50. The same goes for other armies grappling with the problem.