Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

[Fuzuli NL]

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821717113800929791

Are those here who treat Hamas as rapists based on questionable images? You see that, right? Israeli terrorists want rape to be used as a weapon of war. And they say this without hesitation or shame in front of anyone. So stop drawing conclusions based on absurd images. And pay attention to this cruelty of the terrorists. Condemning "both sides" will only lead you to insult those who resist the cruelty of the oppressors. Stop showing us the filth that Israel reveals through its ability to manipulate and create perceptions through social media and through the journalists it buys with money!! Stop giving credit to Israel's statements anymore!!

 

[Relic]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821717113800929791

Are those here who treat Hamas as rapists based on questionable images? You see that, right? Israeli terrorists want rape to be used as a weapon of war. And they say this without hesitation or shame in front of anyone. So stop drawing conclusions based on absurd images. And pay attention to this cruelty of the terrorists. Condemning "both sides" will only lead you to insult those who resist the cruelty of the oppressors. Stop showing us the filth that Israel reveals through its ability to manipulate and create perceptions through social media and through the journalists it buys with money!! Stop giving credit to Israel's statements anymore!!

There are people who rape, murder, commit acts of cowardice and war crimes in every country, region, culture, race, religion, military group, etc... Those acts are not unique to any one group and there are no groups immune to those actions from individuals.

Since the beginning of conflict there have been acts considered to be "out of bounds" relative to the time in question, perpetrated against people and it is seemingly always the goal in a conflict to paint one's advisary as uniquely barbaric and cruel.

The reality is that while the "both sides" narrative doesn't satiate our conviction that the opponent is uniquely immoral, "both sides" is often the actual answer... Maybe it looks different, or it happens in a different way, or at a different rate, but it's objectively true that in war both sides do pretty shitty things to each other.

IMO, if we can accept that reality, there are far more substantive conversations to be had... I've said 1000 times before and I'll say it again. You can't end war crimes or heinous acts of malice by legislation alone. There are a certain segment of every population, every organization and every community that will not comply with the established rules and will act they desire.

The Nazis did unspeakable things to various populations in Eastern Europe. I think those actions are well documented. That said, Canadian, American and British troops did some objectively deplorable things to many of those German soldiers after D-Day and the push towards Germany. Many of those stories are barely known, shrouded in the pages of history, overshadowed by the actions of the Germans. Below is an example.

Canadian hunters and trappers were welcomed into special operations regiments as scouts. These men had unique skill sets that enabled them to go off into the woods by themselves at night and scout enemy locations, undetected... But that's not all they did. Some of them hunted German soldiers like animals. They'd sneak into camps at night and slit the the throats of sleeping Germans. They'd light the tents on fire of sleeping German soldiers and burn them alive as they slept. Any that tried to flee from the fire of the tent would be shot and killed. These scouts were often not believed by their chains of command, who thought they were embelishing their actions in the night. As a result, they started desecrating the German soldiers that they hunted, cutting off fingers and ears, removing teeth, etc as proof of bounty. There were numerous anecdotal accounts of psychological and physical torture so inhumane that chains of command simply turned a blind eye so as not to have to investigate it... One "practice" included forcing German POWs to eat each other's feces, simply for amusement and to disgrace them. SS members were often stripped down and tied up. Another captive member from their unit would then be forced, at gunpoint, to beat his friend / countryman to death with a blunt object, in front of other terrified POWs. The process was repeated with various members of the unit until none were left, at which point they'd simply shoot the last man remaining so that none of them were spared.

Horrific truths of war.

 

[GraveDigger388]

There are people who rape, murder, commit acts of cowardice and war crimes in every country, region, culture, race, religion, military group, etc... Those acts are not unique to any one group and there are no groups immune to those actions from individuals.

Since the beginning of conflict there have been acts considered to be "out of bounds" relative to the time in question, perpetrated against people and it is seemingly always the goal in a conflict to paint one's advisary as uniquely barbaric and cruel.

The reality is that while the "both sides" narrative doesn't satiate our conviction that the opponent is uniquely immoral, "both sides" is often the actual answer... Maybe it looks different, or it happens in a different way, or at a different rate, but it's objectively true that in war both sides do pretty shitty things to each other.

IMO, if we can accept that reality, there are far more substantive conversations to be had... I've said 1000 times before and I'll say it again. You can't end war crimes or heinous acts of malice by legislation alone. There are a certain segment of every population, every organization and every community that will not comply with the established rules and will act they desire.

MF the thing is only in Israel do you see the fucking populace rally behind those atrocities in BROAD DAYLIGHT!! And then they have other parties like YOU constantly trying to smoothen the implication.

For fuck's sake I've had it with this forum.

 

[Relic]

MF the thing is only in Israel do you see the fucking populace rally behind those atrocities in BROAD DAYLIGHT!! And then they have other parties like YOU constantly trying to smoothen the implication.

For fuck's sake I've had it with this forum.

That's objectively not true. They partied in the streets of Gaza in BROAD DAYLIGHT when members of HAMAS returned from Israel with men, women and children as hostages that were meant to be used as bargaining chips in war. A deplorable act that we have video footage of hundreds (if not thousands) of people in Gaza cheering on as if kidnapping civilians is a righteous act... Although I'm sure you'll find a way to morally defend that act, while condeming Israel. For the record, the Israelis that raped people and those who support them should be absolutely held to account, but so to should be the people who kidnapped civilians and the those that cheered it on.

Rape is a deplorable act. So is kidnapping non-combatants. I'm highly consistent in both directions.

Stop the moral grandstanding. This isn't a "one side are saints and the other side are demons" type scenario.

 

[Relic]

Israel continues to be effective from the air using both conventional aviation and drones.

In this video they use either Hellfire or APKWS (Hydra-70) rockets to hunt HAMAS in Jenin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1elmz1f
In this video an air launched weapon (likely a JDAM) is used to destroy an ammunition storage site used by Hezbollah.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1elmutg
In this video Israel claims to kill a commander of the Redwan Force (part of Hezbollah). They use what looks like a hellfire rocket launched from drone.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1ekwrvt

 

[Relic]

Hezbollah operatives being hunted from the air by Israeli drones. Locations unknown.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1ekg19x

 

[GraveDigger388]

Rape is a deplorable act. So is kidnapping non-combatants. I'm highly consistent in both directions.

I agree. Then Israel are guilty of both of those. In a grander scale.

 

[Relic]

USA Navy has sent 12 F-18 Super Hornets from Strike Fighter Squadron 25 of the USS Roosevelt to an undisclosed base in the Middle East, from which they can support Israel if tensions erupt. Along with the F-18s is an E-2D Hawkeye AWACS aircraft and an E-2D Hawkeye refueling aircraft.

USA Air Force has sent 12 F-22 Raptors to the same undisclosed base in the Middle East, from Elemendorf Air Force Base in Alaska. The 12 Air superiority fighters arrived in the Middle East on Thursday.

24 highly capable aircraft, with AWACS and refueling support, for the U.S. to add to the fight should Israel and Iran not be able to settle things diplomatically and the Israel / Hezbollah front explodes into conflict.

US fighter jets reach Middle East armed with warning for Iran

The U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force are sending fighter jets to the Middle East amid tensions between Iran and Israel.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Relic]

I agree. Then Israel are guilty of both of those. In a grander scale.

Nobody (at least in this thread) is refuting Israel's participation in deplorable acts. They're not some uniquely benevolent nation that does everything the "right way". They've got bad actors in their country, as do we all.

This weird game of trying to paint the Israelis and / or the Palestinians as uniquely evil is both childish and unproductive. This conflict needs a permanent diplomatic solution that cannot be achieved as long as both sides (supported by their respective outside interests) paint each other as uniquely evil animals. It's impossible to come to a reasonable outcome for both parties when both sides are busy trying to win the propaganda war, instead of getting serious about coming up with palatable terms for a permanent ceasefire and a path towards a two state solution that makes sense (likely through land swaps).

 

[SilverMachine]

MF the thing is only in Israel do you see the fucking populace rally behind those atrocities in BROAD DAYLIGHT!! And then they have other parties like YOU constantly trying to smoothen the implication.

For fuck's sake I've had it with this forum.

"Only" in Israel?

C'mon, chief, you can condemn this stuff as outrageous & unnacceptable whilst acknowledging plenty of Gazan civvies were over the moon hollering & cheering over the Oct 7 rape-fest too.

Humans suck. The UN has to do what it can to stop this stuff, it's an imperfect system and it won't be enough. Agreed. Let's not do the singling out thing though, there's *plenty* of this type of barbarity going on among both camps in this part of the world. Now, the past, and most likely always. The hate's white-hot, and people have a tendency to turn a blind eye to their side's demon-torture-sex-spree evils, to a pretty shocking degree. Welcome to war: there are rules theoretically, the rules are basically never followed in practicality, suffering exponentially gets worse over time.


EDIT: 12 Raptors, Relic? Well damn, that's probably gonna be more than enough to take care of whatever Iran & their baby brothers can throw toward Tel Aviv. Not to mention perfect for any bloody-nose retaliatory strikes into Iran itself if it (unlikely) got to that point - if Israel can do it, the US with 22s certainly can. I think Iran's been given some pause anyway, seems they're re-evaluating somehow like maybe they don't want to risk a missile/drone thing anymore. Might be something more targeted over time, trying to go after Mossad and other agency types more scalpel-like? *Shrugs*

 

[mehmed beg]

That's objectively not true. They partied in the streets of Gaza in BROAD DAYLIGHT when members of HAMAS returned from Israel with men, women and children as hostages that were meant to be used as bargaining chips in war. A deplorable act that we have video footage of hundreds (if not thousands) of people in Gaza cheering on as if kidnapping civilians is a righteous act... Although I'm sure you'll find a way to morally defend that act, while condeming Israel. For the record, the Israelis that raped people and those who support them should be absolutely held to account, but so to should be the people who kidnapped civilians and the those that cheered it on.

Rape is a deplorable act. So is kidnapping non-combatants. I'm highly consistent in both directions.

Stop the moral grandstanding. This isn't a "one side are saints and the other side are demons" type scenario.

Aren't you the guy , who just 4 or 5 days ago wrote that you are absolutely fine with the children dying for your values???

 

[mehmed beg]

"Only" in Israel?

C'mon, chief, you can condemn this stuff as outrageous & unnacceptable whilst acknowledging plenty of Gazan civvies were over the moon hollering & cheering over the Oct 7 rape-fest too.

Humans suck. The UN has to do what it can to stop this stuff, it's an imperfect system and it won't be enough. Agreed. Let's not do the singling out thing though, there's *plenty* of this type of barbarity going on among both camps in this part of the world. Now, the past, and most likely always. The hate's white-hot, and people have a tendency to turn a blind eye to their side's demon-torture-sex-spree evils, to a pretty shocking degree. Welcome to war: there are rules theoretically, the rules are basically never followed in practicality, suffering exponentially gets worse over time.


EDIT: 12 Raptors, Relic? Well damn, that's probably gonna be more than enough to take care of whatever Iran & their baby brothers can throw toward Tel Aviv. Not to mention perfect for any bloody-nose retaliatory strikes into Iran itself if it (unlikely) got to that point - if Israel can do it, the US with 22s certainly can. I think Iran's been given some pause anyway, seems they're re-evaluating somehow like maybe they don't want to risk a missile/drone thing anymore. Might be something more targeted over time, trying to go after Mossad and other agency types more scalpel-like? *Shrugs*

Any new angle?
Or we will go the generalities?
OH , BUT BUT DO YOU COMNDEM HAMAS? Maybe , you got here to teach some sort of realty or pragmatism?
When the official of a country publicly states that some nation should be eradicated, logically it means that it is doctrinal position, which didn't come about 9 months ago. For that statement, there are so many undeniable facts
Having said that, naturally such ideology and it is ideology backed up , let's say by Talmud, must be eradicated.
If you disagree with this , then I reckon the Allied powers should had made the peace with Germany.
I would like you to quote any but any single document where Nazis wrote anything similar to let's say " top 5" Jewery statements, just in the last 9 months??
Actually, you never could have come with a single document and that's the fact.
These things are very simple indeed. Nothing to philosophie about this.
Simple reality, which is witnessed by everyone here is that there are the recordings ( by the culprits) , demonstrations for the right to rape, TV debates, statements of the politicians, no? All in approval of rape, no?
Very very few opposing voices?
Your claims? " There were people in Gszz celbratiing this and that.......
You got nothing apart dubious conjectures.

 

[mehmed beg]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821838174194200694

On October 7th Palestinian civilians in Gaza were celebrating rapes etc? Even it happened, how some guy on the street could have possibly had known the details of the operations?
But we see here and are told by The Jewery , exactly what they accuse others of , that in reality it is them with such beliefs and acts.
Oy Relic, as long as it confirms with your values? No? My good old friend.

 

[Relic]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821838174194200694

On October 7th Palestinian civilians in Gaza were celebrating rapes etc? Even it happened, how some guy on the street could have possibly had known the details of the operations?
But we see here and are told by The Jewery , exactly what they accuse others of , that in reality it is them with such beliefs and acts.
Oy Relic, as long as it confirms with your values? No? My good old friend.

On October 7th Gazans (including children) celebrated kidnappings and hostage taking as HAMAS returned from their mission. I didn't claim that they cheered on rape. They cheered men, women and children being forcibly taken from Israel as hostages, to be used as bargaining chips in war.

Again, I'll make my objectively valid point. There have been attrocities towards civilians by people on both sides of this conflict. I vehemently denounce any Israeli who raped any Palestinian. That's a disgusting act. That said, I also denounce taking people as hostages to use as bargaining chips in war. That's also a deplorable act. I denounce drone strikes again unarmed aid workers trying provide relief to people facing food insecurity. I also denounce the indiscriminate launching of crudely made rockets into neighborhoods.

 

[Kartal1]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821878683428110517

 

[Relic]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1821878683428110517

Something tells me that behind the scenes Iran is being much more nuanced in their negotiations. They want nothing to do with a direct war against Israel backed by U.S. naval and air power. It's not good for anyone... Sadly, Lebanon will be absolutely devastated as Hezbollah will be the primary target and Lebanese civilians will undoubtedly get caught up in the mix.

 

[mehmed beg]

On October 7th Gazans (including children) celebrated kidnappings and hostage taking as HAMAS returned from their mission. I didn't claim that they cheered on rape. They cheered men, women and children being forcibly taken from Israel as hostages, to be used as bargaining chips in war.

Again, I'll make my objectively valid point. There have been attrocities towards civilians by people on both sides of this conflict. I vehemently denounce any Israeli who raped any Palestinian. That's a disgusting act. That said, I also denounce taking people as hostages to use as bargaining chips in war. That's also a deplorable act. I denounce drone strikes again unarmed aid workers trying provide relief to people facing food insecurity. I also denounce the indiscriminate launching of crudely made rockets into neighborhoods.

Why someone whose father or brother had been in jail , without charge most often, wouldn't celebrate the possibility of their release?
Can you explain to me what's wrong with that?
As I have explained long ago , even in the case that you can prove, which you have so called atrocities of Hamas, you can't prove that on general it is policy of Hamas. Those can be attributed to the individual actions .
But when we see the public statement of state official, presenting, inciting, calling and excusing the war crimes then it shows, without need to bring other facts, that it is doctrine of that country and it is has been there for a long time
The last of my sentence can be proven by the huge body of evidence, so no need to elaborate any further.
This shows , that there is no equalising ideas, all of them to blame? This is not bar fight.
Moreover, even if the Palestinians did what you claim, by the International low , it doesn't change anything.
As of your statement, that you are sorry for the children, well you ain't. Besides stating that if children die for your values, you have been practically cheering for the massacres in Russo Ukrainian war with the statements " That it is in your interest ".
I don't see , what possibly you can say about that.
I didn't push you into this?

 

[Corvus]

Well, I mean...

Yeah, good luck with that absolute fantasy.

Look, nobody disputes that if in some completely-unreal-hypothetical land that Iran, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Yemen all got together, maybe somehow flipped the Egyptians & Jordanians & Emiratis to be on-side, that they could theoretically overrun Israel in a land invasion.

No shit. Thing is, that's never coming to pass, the latter three have bigger antipathy toward Iran than Israel for one.

And, even discarding the whole "if it came to that the US and half of Europe would be intervening, boots on the ground - and they absolutely would" factor, surely you're aware Israel has nukes, right? You can take their small, relatively-flat-and-low homeland in some hail mary suicide run, maybe a 10% chance of pulling it off it your crazy-ass leaders by some miracle become actually competent for the first time ever.

A half hour later the entire region's glass.

Even crazy middle-eastern dictators aren't so hot on that future for their people. Not. Gonna. Happen.

All your post is based on the assumption that the West and their colony in the middle east will stay strong and the rest will remain weak.

It is not only you. Many people have the same assumption that things stay as they are: strong countries remain strong, weak countries remain weak, enemies stay enemies.

However, history proves that things do change, and they change surprisingly fast. You wouldn't believe that Brits would be able to defeat the Ottomans and invade Istanbul one day, if you were living in, let's say 1700's. You wouldn't believe Germans and the French would establish the EU after hundreds of years of enmity and WW2. You wouldn't believe that the Europeans -that colonized the whole world- would desperately need Americans to protect themselves from the Russians if you were living just a hundred years ago.

So, when I say Israel is doomed to fail, I'm not talking about the next year. I'm talking about a future with a different international power structure.

Yes, Israel has nukes but they're not the only ones with them. In case of a nuclear scenario, that would be the end for Israel but it wouldn't be the end for their enemies. It will hurt but they will recover just like Japan did.

Here is Gideon Levy, a prominent Israeli journalist talks about the internal crisis of Israel and the general mood in the country:

Here's Prof. Mearsheimer talks about the grim present and future of Israel:

 

[SilverMachine]

Any new angle?
Or we will go the generalities?
OH , BUT BUT DO YOU COMNDEM HAMAS? Maybe , you got here to teach some sort of realty or pragmatism?
When the official of a country publicly states that some nation should be eradicated, logically it means that it is doctrinal position, which didn't come about 9 months ago. For that statement, there are so many undeniable facts
Having said that, naturally such ideology and it is ideology backed up , let's say by Talmud, must be eradicated.
If you disagree with this , then I reckon the Allied powers should had made the peace with Germany.
I would like you to quote any but any single document where Nazis wrote anything similar to let's say " top 5" Jewery statements, just in the last 9 months??
Actually, you never could have come with a single document and that's the fact.
These things are very simple indeed. Nothing to philosophie about this.
Simple reality, which is witnessed by everyone here is that there are the recordings ( by the culprits) , demonstrations for the right to rape, TV debates, statements of the politicians, no? All in approval of rape, no?
Very very few opposing voices?
Your claims? " There were people in Gszz celbratiing this and that.......
You got nothing apart dubious conjectures.

And unless you're able to express yourself more legibly, nobody understands what the **** you've just said.

Nobody's calling on anyone to condemn anyone, it's a pointlesss exercise. You asserted the Jews are some unique case in being apologists for rape and misery in war, other posters have confronted you with what an insane position to hold that is, even in this very-specific Middle Eastern context.

That's all. You do you, nobody's persuading you on this just as you're not persuading anybody else. Point in case, humans suck, this will never get better.