India Historical Indian War History Thread

[Nilgiri]

This thread concerning all war material (w.r.t India history) to be put here. Strictly no trolling and all posts must follow the forum rules.

There was an issue with trolling within previous thread started on 1971...so it was deleted.

No country-bashing. Please delineate difference between a govt/regime/perpetrators etc... and the country at large.

Everything to be done strictly professionally and factually in this thread. Thank you.

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Nilgiri]

December 16th is a big date on our calendar, here is the overall context and story (from Indian and Bangladeshi perspective) for those interested:

Jyoti Malhotra interviews Mahfuz Anam, a former 'muktijoddha', or freedom fighter in 1971, who for the last 27 years has been Editor of Bangladesh's biggest English daily, The Daily Star. They discuss the evolving India-Bangladesh relationship, the damage caused to it by the National Register of Citizens (NRC), the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) debates and China.

Recent commemoration this year:

 

[Jackdaws]

I think there should be a separate one for each war/conflict. 1948, 1965, 1971, Kargil and one umbrella one for minor skirmishes like Siachen, Atlantique Incident, Feb 2019 etc. What say @Nilgiri ?

 

[Nilgiri]

I think there should be a separate one for each war/conflict. 1948, 1965, 1971, Kargil and one umbrella one for minor skirmishes like Siachen, Atlantique Incident, Feb 2019 etc. What say @Nilgiri ?

Keep everything in here for now...the forum is new and this kind of delicate subject is better starting a bit more slow non-confrontational pace etc.

As member interest/participation/activity increases with time for this subject, I will split whats in here to new separate threads as appropriate.

I will also see at that point about starting a separate "Indian History" subsection as well for archiving all manner of historical topics pertaining to India and Indian civ there etc.

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Jackdaws]

I am going to start with 1971 - since this is one of the most documented and written about wars. I shall try to put it in Chronological order - but there might be some overlap in timelines.

Let's begin with how the Western World got hold of the genocide that was taking place in erstwhile East Pakistan.

It had nothing to do with India. It was a Pakistani journalist by the name of Anthony Mascarenhas from Karachi who was responsible for highlighting the scale of the genocide to the outside world. Ironically, he had been flown in by the Pakistani Military from Karachi in West Pakistan to show the "good work" the military had done. But given what he say - he contacted The Guardian in the UK. And after fleeing to London with his family - he finally brought out the article which changed the world map.

Here is the Article published in the Guardian on June 13, 1971 (PDF of scanned newspaper) . Also you can see the picture of the front page of the story.

 

[Kaptaan]

The 1971 Bangla combined with Indian victory against the PA force deployed in Bangla delta was probably the greatest victory of the 20th century.

A force from Pakistan that numbered about 55k soldiers found itself drowned in a hostile land full of very annoyed 60 millionBangla people who irregular Mukhti Bahini forces supplied by India laid siege on the 55k Pakistani force. Then after duly preparing for months India attacked from three directions. Enjoying 15:1 advantage, yes you read that right 15 to one advantage [source is Indian High Command] working in tandem with the irregular Mukhto Bahini's surrounded the PA force. This was the greatest victory of Indian Arms in 1,000 years.

Interesting account of Bangla Mukhtos attacking in conjunction with Indian Army against isolated PA force.

Battle of Dhalai: The Bangladesh Campaign 1971

 

[Kaptaan]

Interesting quote from BBC interview of Indian Commander of the 1971 war, Field Marshall Manekshaw.

"About the 5th day of the (1971) conflict in (East Pakistan)...everything had gone wrong (for India); the (Indian) Navy had lost the Khukri; Our (India) Air Force has lost a lot of aircraft on the ground; my (Indian Army's) advances in Bangladesh were halted......The Pakistan Army in East Pakistan fought very gallantly but they had no chance; they were a thousand miles away from their base; I had 8 or 9 months of preparation; I had almost 15:1 advantage; they had no chance but they fought very gallantly."

Yes, this is the top Indian commander and he is saying -

"I had almost 15:1 advantage over Pakistani's.

Edit: Figure corrected.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Interesting quote from BBC interview of Indian Commander of the 1971 war, Field Marshall Manekshaw.

"About the 5th day of the (1971) conflict in (East Pakistan)...everything had gone wrong (for India); the (Indian) Navy had lost the Khukri; Our (India) Air Force has lost a lot of aircraft on the ground; my (Indian Army's) advances in Bangladesh were halted......The Pakistan Army in East Pakistan fought very gallantly but they had no chance; they were a thousand miles away from their base; I had 8 or 9 months of preparation; I had almost 50:1 advantage; they had no chance but they fought very gallantly."

Yes, this is the top Indian commander and he is saying -

"I had almost 50:1 advantage over Pakistani's.

Sounds like 15 to 1, to me.

You sure it's not 15?

 

[ekemenirtu]

Then after duly preparing for months India attacked from three directions. Enjoying 15:1 advantage, yes you read that right 15 to one advantage [source is Indian High Command] working in tandem with the irregular Mukhto Bahini's surrounded the PA force. This was the greatest victory of Indian Arms in 1,000 years.

This sounds more credible.

 

[ekemenirtu]

December 16th is a big date on our calendar, here is the overall context and story (from Indian and Bangladeshi perspective) for those interested:

Jyoti Malhotra interviews Mahfuz Anam, a former 'muktijoddha', or freedom fighter in 1971, who for the last 27 years has been Editor of Bangladesh's biggest English daily, The Daily Star. They discuss the evolving India-Bangladesh relationship, the damage caused to it by the National Register of Citizens (NRC), the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) debates and China.

Recent commemoration this year:

Meaningless talking to those journalists or politicians.

It's a bit like Russian media interviewing Assad, Chinese media interviewing Kim Jong Un, Turkmen, Azeri, Saudi, Emirati or Sisi media interviewing their ministers or such.

There is little to no media freedom in those countries and Bangladesh military and its politicians take orders from New Delhi and Washington D.C.

I believe the current PM was brought to power thanks to American-Indian machinations sometime in 2006.

This is not too different from how the French created Lebanon or helped the minority Allawis gain prominence in politics in Syria.

Not too different from how Republic of India was essentially created by the Brits or how most Arab countries are a creation of imperial powers such as France and the UK. Sykes-Picot.

Not to derail the discussion, carry on. The topic must be interesting to a lot of people

 

[Madokafc]

Meaningless talking to those journalists or politicians.

It's a bit like Russian media interviewing Assad, Chinese media interviewing Kim Jong Un, Turkmen, Azeri, Saudi, Emirati or Sisi media interviewing their ministers or such.

There is little to no media freedom in those countries and Bangladesh military and its politicians take orders from New Delhi and Washington D.C.

I believe the current PM was brought to power thanks to American-Indian machinations sometime in 2006.

This is not too different from how the French created Lebanon or helped the minority Allawis gain prominence in politics in Syria.

Not too different from how Republic of India was essentially created by the Brits or how most Arab countries are a creation of imperial powers such as France and the UK. Sykes-Picot.

Not to derail the discussion, carry on. The topic must be interesting to a lot of people

It is better to let profesional do their job, and layman to sit down and read more before typing a comment

 

[Kaptaan]

This sounds more credible.

Many thanks for the correction. As a asides do you know that in terms of distance Bangla is to Pakistan what France is to Turkey. Can you imagine a Turkish force of 55k men holding down all of France whilst coming under sustained attack from Germans? The Turkish force would be overwhelmed and isolated from home by 1,200 miles with a enemies surrounding it on all sides. Often the media cites 92k PA soldiers. This is absolute rubbish. The 92k figure is of PA soldiers, police, families, children posted from West Pakistan.

 

[ekemenirtu]

It is better to let profesional do their job, and layman to sit down and read more before typing a comment

I suppose you want to impart your professional wisdom here.

Feel free to do so.

 

[Null/Void]

No one outsides of South Asia cares about the 1971 war or anything about the war Think Tank folks see it as another Cold War proxy conflict where third worlders died dont know why Indians care so much about it

 

[ekemenirtu]

Many thanks for the correction. As a asides do you know that in terms of distance Bangla is to Pakistan what France is to Turkey. Can you imagine a Turkish force of 55k men holding down all of France whilst coming under sustained attack from Germans? The Turkish force would be overwhelmed and isolated from home by 1,200 miles with a enemies surrounding it on all sides. Often the media cites 92k PA soldiers. This is absolute rubbish. The 92k figure is of PA soldiers, police, families, children posted from West Pakistan.

View attachment 9521

That's about 80,000 Pakistani troops that surrendered.

Not too different from the 90,000 figure quoted by Indians, is it?

Pakistani forces, I am told, were a bit like the Armenians in the recently concluded Azeri-Armenian war over Karabakh region.

Throughout the course of the war, the people in their country were fed stories about their imminent victory and impending doom of their Indian adversaries.

All of a sudden, they were told that "Dacca" has fallen, if my memory does not betray me.

This is uncannily similar to the way the Armenian regime had recently fooled its populace and was later forced to reveal the truth. The sudden reveleation of the truth jolted the Armenian public, forcing them to react quite angrily at their leaders.

I suspect the Pakistani people's experience in 1971 was similar.

Maybe you can share some anecdotes on the similarities between the two countries' experiences. The case of Armenia and the case of Pakistan.

 

[ekemenirtu]

No one outsides of South Asia cares about the 1971 war or anything about the war Think Tank folks see it as another Cold War proxy conflict where third worlders died dont know why Indians care so much about it

They won, that's why they care.

I suppose, Pakistan lost, and Pakistanis also cared quite a bit. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to fight so far away from home for many months (or was it years?), to kill and get killed and wounded, for no reason whatsoever.

Of course, if you ask Indians how much they care about 1962, or about 200 years of British rule, I suspect the response would not be pleasant. I may be wrong there. We will have to see.

 

[Kaptaan]

That's about 80,000 Pakistani troops that surrendered.

PA strength is 55k. Rest were police and para-military forces which would be lightly armed and not trained to fight a war against invading army.

 

[Null/Void]

That's about 80,000 Pakistani troops that surrendered.

Not too different from the 90,000 figure quoted by Indians, is it?

Pakistani forces, I am told, were a bit like the Armenians in the recently concluded Azeri-Armenian war over Karabakh region.

Throughout the course of the war, the people in their country were fed stories about their imminent victory and impending doom of their Indian adversaries.

All of a sudden, they were told that "Dacca" has fallen, if my memory does not betray me.

This is eerily similar to the way the Armenian regime has recently fooled its populace and was forced to reveal the truth. The sudden reveleation of the truth jolted the Armenian public, forcing them to react quite angrily at their leaders.

I suspect the Pakistani people's experience in 1971 was similar.

Maybe you can share some anecdotes on the similarities between the two countries' experiences. The case of Armenia and the case of Pakistan.

Great Comparison Armenians were fooled into but I dont know what it will bode for their future

They won, that's why they care.

I suppose, Pakistan lost, and Pakistanis also cared quite a bit. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to fight so far away from home for many months (or was it years?), to kill and get killed and wounded, for no reason whatsoever.

Of course, if you ask Indians how much they care about 1962, or about 200 years of British rule, I suspect the response would not be pleasant. I may be wrong there. We will have to see.

Because after nearly 1,000 years of humiliation at hands of Muslim invaders the Hindus running at 15 to one advantage managed to bag a victory with help of millions of Banglas. So it must be shouted, touted a the victory of the millenia.

And it is ...

Still I yawn and rest of world yawn Cold War proxy conflicts where Third worlders died Bangladesh as "East Pakistan" was just as a foreign country to anyone from Pakistan Proper