TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Spook]

Sizing is completely wrong but still a illustration

 

[Philip the Arab]

How do you think we are capable to use SOM?

Nobody wants to lose business so they won't let you use them on foreign aircraft when they can just sell them AMRAAMs or Meteors.


I'm not talking about your aircraft, I'm talking foreign jets.

 

[Philip the Arab]

View attachment 24080

Sizing is completely wrong but still a illustration

Is there a stealth anti ship missile under development?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is there any distinction such as; solid fuel fits better for the air force while liquid fuel is fitting better for the land/sea uses?

I feel like;
it would be easier to start a liquid fueled ramjet missile at lower speeds, so makes more sense to be used on nearly-stationary platforms
While solid fuel is hard to start thus better to be launched from fast-moving platform-jet.

First of all, speed is important in a Ramjet. For the ramjet to operate or kick in, there has to be a good amount of air coming in to the compression chamber. To achieve this the missile has to reach high subsonic or low supersonic speeds depending on combustion chamber design parameters. Booster level (mostly solid fuel propulsion) achieves this speed for the missile.
Once the Ramjet engine starts to work it is most efficient at around 3 Mach region. To conserve fuel the missile would travel at 2.5-3 Mach. Then for terminal, no scape zone speed it would go up to 4 Mach. If pushed a Ramjet engine can hit 6 Mach. But it would be very inefficient and use too much fuel. For that sort of or even higher speeds (and fuel efficiency), a Scramjet is needed.
There are 3 basic problems associated with liquid fuelled missiles.
1. Shelf life
2. preparation of missile for launching and engineering needs to accommodate fuel lines, special mixers and injectors.
3. storage difficulty of liquid fuels
When it is land or sea launched missiles (or even under water launched) , these logistical problems can be tackled to a certain extent. As is the case with Brahmos.
Liquid fuels are easier to mix with air and inject. And burn well.
But solid fuels are, if implemented correctly, in effect more efficient. Pls see below link.

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So for air launched missiles it is a no brainier but to use solid fuelled ramjet engines.
But if you are going to develop your ramjet in to a Scramjet at a later stage, then you have to use hydrogen as fuel in liquid form. So it is more feasible to use liquid fuel all the way, like they are doing with Brahmos 2 , which is a scramjet powered missile. (Zircon too has a liquid fuelled scramjet engine)

 

[Spook]

Is there a stealth anti ship missile under development?

For their class, SOM and Atmaca incorporate stealth features, capabilities in the design.

KGK-LR Glide Bomb is in development, Glide bomb variant of Kuzgun and MAM-T. Not anti-ship missiles but can be used against naval targets. It's design by nature. Small size, no engine etc. makes it very difficult to detect. It can't sink a ship but it can damage it enough to disable the ship, or start a fire.

 

[Spook]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/316233235237572609

Classification/Naming System

Especially A2A missiles need naming system it started to get confusing

 

[Philip the Arab]

@Spook
I mean like a counterpart to LRASM which is ahead of ATMACA.

Streakers are countered today because NATO has been going against that threat pattern for decades.

 

[Spook]

@Spook
I mean like a counterpart to LRASM which is ahead of ATMACA.

Streakers are countered today because NATO has been going against that threat pattern for decades.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Good old days of Phlydaily.

 

[Combat-Master]

HGK 82

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I think it's the Gökhan ramjet missile we see in this image.

 

[Combat-Master]

I think it's the Gökhan ramjet missile we see in this image.

Meteor Missile is a collaborative european missile, the fact that we are capable of developing such a missile means that we have crossed a technological threshold. A threshold that will force countries to work with Turkey or else Turkey becomes a competitor. Turkey as a competitor with few political restrictions and ITAR free exports would be an unbeatable cold sore to the established defence sector.


Meteor Missile and Countries involved

• Fin Actuation Sub-System (FAS) from Sener in Spain and MBDA at Stevenage
• Cobham in Dorset makes the Multi-Mission Launcher rail
• Ramjet system from Bayern-Chemie in Germany
• The seeker uses technology from ASTER and MICA, made by Thales and MBDA
• Inertial measurement system (IMS) is made by Litef in German
• Thermal batteries and power systems, ASB in Scotland
• Saab Bofors Dynamics produce the radar proximity fuze
• Parts of the missile body, Indra Sistemas
• Warhead from TDW in Germany, now part of MBDA

 

[Yasar_TR]

For their class, SOM and Atmaca incorporate stealth features, capabilities in the design.

KGK-LR Glide Bomb is in development, Glide bomb variant of Kuzgun and MAM-T. Not anti-ship missiles but can be used against naval targets. It's design by nature. Small size, no engine etc. makes it very difficult to detect. It can't sink a ship but it can damage it enough to disable the ship, or start a fire.

Although no news is coming through at the moment, as per @Cabatli_53 mentioned over two years ago in Pakistan Defence Forum, there is a work being done on Bora2 missile. This work should let us see the emergence of a 500+km range new Bora with a seeker head that can hit moving sea targets.
As Bora is the Turkish version of Iskender M missile, it should have a top speed of 6-7 Mach and a terminal speed of over 4 Mach. This is a quasi-ballistic missile. In other words it may act like a ballistic missile but actually has an apogee of no higher than 40-50 km. this is an altitude neither Thaad nor Patriot can react to. So as it descends at a very steep angle on to it’s target there is very little time to intercept it. Since terminal speed is directly proportional to the weight of the missile and to make a 2.5 ton, ~350km range Bora go above 500 km in range, it should be much heavier than Bora1. Also the speed is inversely proportional to the drag coefficient and diameter of the missile, I would assume that Roketsan engineers would streamline this missile accordingly .Hence it should have much higher terminal velocity than Bora 1.
With respect to accuracy; We have all witnessed Bora1 hitting a target within 1m at 280km distance.

 

[what]

Meteor Missile is a collaborative european missile, the fact that we are capable of developing such a missile means that we have crossed a technological threshold. A threshold that will force countries to work with Turkey or else Turkey becomes a competitor. Turkey as a competitor with few political restrictions and ITAR free exports would be an unbeatable cold sore to the established defence sector.


Meteor Missile and Countries involved

• Fin Actuation Sub-System (FAS) from Sener in Spain and MBDA at Stevenage
• Cobham in Dorset makes the Multi-Mission Launcher rail
• Ramjet system from Bayern-Chemie in Germany
• The seeker uses technology from ASTER and MICA, made by Thales and MBDA
• Inertial measurement system (IMS) is made by Litef in German
• Thermal batteries and power systems, ASB in Scotland
• Saab Bofors Dynamics produce the radar proximity fuze
• Parts of the missile body, Indra Sistemas
• Warhead from TDW in Germany, now part of MBDA

Just for context:
I'm sure that these countries could contribute more each, but they share the costs, development and production with each other.

 

[Oublious]

Nobody wants to lose business so they won't let you use them on foreign aircraft when they can just sell them AMRAAMs or Meteors.


I'm not talking about your aircraft, I'm talking foreign jets.

We are using it without permission, but older block fighters.

 

[Nilgiri]

First of all, speed is important in a Ramjet. For the ramjet to operate or kick in, there has to be a good amount of air coming in to the compression chamber. To achieve this the missile has to reach high subsonic or low supersonic speeds depending on combustion chamber design parameters. Booster level (mostly solid fuel propulsion) achieves this speed for the missile.
Once the Ramjet engine starts to work it is most efficient at around 3 Mach region. To conserve fuel the missile would travel at 2.5-3 Mach. Then for terminal, no scape zone speed it would go up to 4 Mach. If pushed a Ramjet engine can hit 6 Mach. But it would be very inefficient and use too much fuel. For that sort of or even higher speeds (and fuel efficiency), a Scramjet is needed.
There are 3 basic problems associated with liquid fuelled missiles.
1. Shelf life
2. preparation of missile for launching and engineering needs to accommodate fuel lines, special mixers and injectors.
3. storage difficulty of liquid fuels
When it is land or sea launched missiles (or even under water launched) , these logistical problems can be tackled to a certain extent. As is the case with Brahmos.
Liquid fuels are easier to mix with air and inject. And burn well.
But solid fuels are, if implemented correctly, in effect more efficient. Pls see below link.

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So for air launched missiles it is a no brainier but to use solid fuelled ramjet engines.
But if you are going to develop your ramjet in to a Scramjet at a later stage, then you have to use hydrogen as fuel in liquid form. So it is more feasible to use liquid fuel all the way, like they are doing with Brahmos 2 , which is a scramjet powered missile. (Zircon too has a liquid fuelled scramjet engine)

Great post.

In India case the underlying frontier programs related to what you are mentioning here are HSTDV (Scramjet) and SFDR (Solid Fuel ducted Ramjet).

I plan to create dedicated threads for each (and other programs of note) soon for ease of the interested readers and also plan to give some of my underlying analysis when I can, here is example:

Eg: https://defencehub.live/threads/indian-missile-archive.91/page-13#post-88408

I hope this way the cross-pollination for analysis becomes more useful and easier to access for all.

For Brahmos 2, it will be interesting to see if HSTDV forms its basis or Zircon does. In any case I am very pleased at HSTDV program that we have it, in case relations with Russia do not remain at current level going forward (a real possibility).

 

[TheInsider]

New info Roketsan works on solid fuel ramjet. Liquid fuel ramjet is a Tubitak project.

 

[Anmdt]

New info Roketsan works on solid fuel ramjet. Liquid fuel ramjet is a Tubitak project.

This was already obvious no need to tell it as 'info'.

 

[TheInsider]

It wasn't obvious to me and for a lot of people. There were only guesses and suspicions regarding the ramjet studies at Roketsan and none of them include engine design most of the studies were revolving around aerodynamic body and engine inlet designs. Roketsan having a separate ramjet engine project is news.

According to a source, Tubitak ramjet involves something revolutionary in ramjet systems. It is "characteristically different" in a way from the currently available ramjet systems.

It is rumored that it can hold speeds around Mach 4, it has the ability to throttle up and down.

Contrary to what some people think we won't wait a lot to see Gökhan in action(I don't think test footage will be revealed though). The project is moving to ballistic flight tests. The first ballistic flight test is planned for 2022 a very ambitious date. After ballistic flight tests, the project is expected to advance smoothly as it shares many subsystems with Gökdoğan.

 

[Philips]

It wasn't obvious to me and for a lot of people. There were only guesses and suspicions regarding the ramjet studies at Roketsan and none of them include engine design most of the studies were revolving around aerodynamic body and engine inlet designs. Roketsan having a separate ramjet engine project is news.

According to a source, Tubitak ramjet involves something revolutionary in ramjet systems. It is "characteristically different" in a way from the currently available ramjet systems.

It is rumored that it can hold speeds around Mach 4, it has the ability to throttle up and down.

Contrary to what some people think we won't wait a lot to see Gökhan in action(I don't think test footage will be revealed though). The project is moving to ballistic flight tests. The first ballistic flight test is planned for 2022 a very ambitious date. After ballistic flight tests, the project is expected to advance smoothly as it shares many subsystems with Gökdoğan.

Much appreciated. Is there any news on an AESA radar seeker for SAMs and air-to-air missiles?