TR Air Defence Programs

[Tornadoss]

We do have Atom 40mm airburst round and Şahin (Hawk) system to use them with, but their range is extremely limited. I hope Aselsan is working on a longer range versions not just naval air defense but as an overall option.

But it's based on 40 mm grenade. Different type of munition.

 

[boredaf]

But it's based on 40 mm grenade. Different type of munition.

I know but it also has a smart cap and can be programmed, so the caliber isn't exactly a mystery to them.

 

[Tornadoss]

I know but it also has a smart cap and can be programmed, so the caliber isn't exactly a mystery to them.

Indeed it shouldn't be a problem. With a gun similar to 40 mm Oto Melara Twin compact gun it can be turned into good CIWS system.

 

[UkroTurk]

Indeed it shouldn't be a problem. With a gun similar to 40 mm Oto Melara Twin compact gun it can be turned into good CIWS system.

They used it as multipurpose gun against ships and helicopters. İf you use it with airburst ammunition, the gun will be just CIWS. You couldn't damage a warship with airburst ammunitions.

Need to analyze your enemy's capabilities and weapons then need to create defense systems.

UMTAS + SUNGURs will be more effective than twinforty .

 

[Afif]

To shoot down incoming threats (subsonic/supersonic cruise missiles, loitering ammunitions, drones and helicopters) I believe there could a reliable middle option in between CIWS and quick reaction missiles, using the main gun of the ship. Adding unprecedented operational flexibility to ship's both defensive and offensive capability.

To get an idea what we are talking about here, let's disscuse a system that is already in active service, the STRALES system. Successfully developed by Leonardo.

Which includes three main components: a 76/62 naval gun, DART guided ammunition and a Radio Frequency Guidance System with associated electronic.

1. The DART projectile is similar in many aspects to other hyper-velocity systems, for example the Starstreak SAM missile's multi-dart warhead, but is a guided gun projectile with radio controls and a proximity fuze for low level engagement (up to 2 meters over the sea). DART is fired at 1,200 m/s (3,900 ft/s), can reach 5 km range in only 5 seconds, and can perform up to 40G maneuver. The DART projectile is made of two parts: the forward is free to rotate and has two small canard wings for flight control. The aft part has the 2.5 kg warhead (with tungsten cubes and the 3A millimetric wave new fuse), six fixed wings and the radio receivers.

2. The guidance system is Command Line of Sight (CLOS). It uses a TX antenna installed on gun. The radio-command for them is provided on a broadcast data-link (Ka Band).

The DART projectiles are guided by a radio beam that follows the target by means of homing system. The projectile is fitted with a proximity fuze, but there were many hits during the firing trials.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition is the only weapon system in the world which can ensure high level performance (at a lower cost than dedicated anti-missile systems) in the engagement of manouevring supersonic missiles with high lateral g force. The system is very effective also in the engagement of fast manouevring little boats.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition

The first lot of DART/STRALES 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy’s ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

www.leonardo.com

The first lot of DART 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March, 2014. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy's ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

Conclusion- I believe Aselsan and MKE has the technical know-how and necessary infrastructure to develop similar system for Turkish and friendly countries Navies based on MKE 76mm Naval gun.

 

[UkroTurk]

Gokdeniz will form a steel wall at a distance of 4000m from t

I have an another question: how self defense systems -that combined with ESSM( Hisar-N) plus Gökdeniz 35mm - could manage not to engage own SAMs.
The scenario:
1)Your radar detected very fast Cruise missiles flying toward your ship.
2) You send 2 ESSM/Hisar N at 10-5km distance
3) anti-ship missiles start maneuvering and managed to come close .
4) at 4 km distance ESSMs chase Antiship missiles.
5 ) Then your Gökdeniz 35m start bursting.
6) Finally Gökdeniz kills ESSMs instead of Antiships.

So combination of 4km ranged CIWS with SAMs is too much complicated.

İ can't imagine how could RAM/Levent/SUNGUR with Millenium gun/Gökdeniz CIWS combination manage to identify the enemy missiles.

Maybe it is the reason Germans don't use Millenium gun with RAM.

 

[Afif]

If ESSM or HISAR-D misses its target on first attempt there is no way they can take a 180 degrees turn to chase the target again. (Even with a second pulse motor)

Only time a missile can take a 180 degrees turn when its primary motor is running. (Even that is going to greatly reduce its effective range)
Like how some WVR missile do it.

However, at 10km Hisar-D or ESSM motor would be almost burned out.

Then again, chances of ESSM and HISAR-D missing the target is quite slim as they both can perform up to 40G maneuver or more, while subsonic as well as brahmos type missiles can only perform up to 12G maneuver.

In a nutshell, interceptors can comfortably follow the targets even when they do sharp maneuvers. (Also, to maximize the chances of interception, usually 2x ESSM is assigned to each incoming high value target)

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I have an another question: how self defense systems -that combined with ESSM( Hisar-N) plus Gökdeniz 35mm - could manage not to engage own SAMs.
The scenario:
1)Your radar detected very fast Cruise missiles flying toward your ship.
2) You send 2 ESSM/Hisar N at 10-5km distance
3) anti-ship missiles start maneuvering and managed to come close .
4) at 4 km distance ESSMs chase Antiship missiles.
5 ) Then your Gökdeniz 35m start bursting.
6) Finally Gökdeniz kills ESSMs instead of Antiships.

So combination of 4km ranged CIWS with SAMs is too much complicated.

İ can't imagine how could RAM/Levent/SUNGUR with Millenium gun/Gökdeniz CIWS combination manage to identify the enemy missiles.

Maybe it is the reason Germans don't use Millenium gun with RAM.

Hisar N will be longer range and will destroy ASM far away (20-50km) from reach of Gögdeniz . If Hisar N fails and AntiShip missile gets too closee 5-10km than closse air defence can fire and destroy it .

 

[Yasar_TR]

Conclusion- I believe Aselsan and MKE has the technical know-how and necessary infrastructure to develop similar system for Turkish and friendly countries Navies based on MKE 76mm Naval gun.

Aselsan, since 2006 has been developing a Fire Control System called TAKS. This has been upgraded further during the course of the last 3 years in to newer and more accurate versions.
Both 127mm and 76 mm guns have been fired with great success, controlled by this system. It has full control over the entire specified range of the guns against surface and aerial threats including fast aircrafts and missiles.
Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.
This system enables non guided and relatively inexpensive rounds to be effective against threats with precision. On surface ships it complements and becomes an integral part of the AD system.

For the future, when the guided rounds become available it will only add to the effectiveness and high precision of the system.

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

 

[Quasar]

There is no way they are quadpacking current SIPER interceptor. (Did you see how fat its booster?)

However, even when they quadpack the later block of SIPER, G40 will still have its relevance.

New block of SIPER are expensive and meant for long range and high altitude.

They are not (economically) feasible for quick reaction point defence.

That's where G40 comes in.
It would be similar to ESSM (expect ESSM has TVC while G40 will have orientation control system. Probbaly something like CAMM has)

On the other hand, SIPER will have similar role to SM-2 interceptor.

Agreed that current ATMACA booster for SİPER understandably seems to use a readly available booster for the sake of having an operational long range SAM as soon as possible, however like in the case of BARAK, SİPER booster is open to eveluation which may be focusing on VLS use I belive

 

[uçuyorum]

View attachment 58491

Agreed that current ATMACA booster for SİPER understandably seems to use a readly available booster for the sake of having an operational long range SAM as soon as possible, however like in the case of BARAK, SİPER booster is open to eveluation which may be focusing on VLS use I belive

Original Siper missile is meant to be longer without booster isn’t it

 

[Afif]

Original Siper missile is meant to be longer without booster isn’t it

@Anmdt previously Said, even the new interceptor will get booster eventually. Like SM-2 series.

 

[TheInsider]

Aselsan, since 2006 has been developing a Fire Control System called TAKS. This has been upgraded further during the course of the last 3 years in to newer and more accurate versions.
Both 127mm and 76 mm guns have been fired with great success, controlled by this system. It has full control over the entire specified range of the guns against surface and aerial threats including fast aircrafts and missiles.
Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.
This system enables non guided and relatively inexpensive rounds to be effective against threats with precision. On surface ships it complements and becomes an integral part of the AD system.

For the future, when the guided rounds become available it will only add to the effectiveness and high precision of the system.

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

Wrong FCS of Altay develop with the experience gained from Leopard 1T Volkan modernization project.

Later Aselsan further improved FCS of Altay after the project is vastly delayed.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wrong FCS of Altay develop with the experience gained from Leopard 1T Volkan modernization project.

Later Aselsan further improved FCS of Altay after the project is vastly delayed.

“Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.”

TAKS means Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi/Tank Atış Kontrol Sistemi
(In English, Gun or Tank Fire Control System)

What is wrong with that first statement?

A version of TAKS was started to be developed by Aselsan for 76mm naval gun in 2006 after Volkan 1 was successfully qualified for Leopard1 in 2006. Also a much improved version of this TAKS was introduced in 2022 for the 127mm naval gun.

TAKS was first started in 2002 for Leopard1; then qualified on tanks in 2006 (and the last tank was delivered in 2010). Then it was improved as Volkan 2 for Altay and Leopard 2 tanks when it was supposed to be qualified in to tanks in 2022. Also in 2022 a version of this FCS called VolkanM was introduced specifically developed for the M60TM tanks.

Just by reading that first sentence , in your head, you have decided it is “wrong” with no real substance. Interesting!!

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

The last Leopard-1 Tank modernized by ASELSAN

The Pr

www.defenceturkey.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) - More Precise Than Ever

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) Historical Background M60TM Main Battle Tank is further modernization of M60T which itself is extensive modernization of M60A1/A3. In 2017, The Fırat Modernization Project was initiated with the experiences gained from Operation Euphrates Shield (Fırat Kalkanı Harekatı) to increa...

forum.warthunder.com

Türkiye presents Volkan-II tank fire control system for Altay tank - PHOTO

The qualification activities of the Volkan-II tank fire control system, developed by ASELSAN for the Altay main battle tank, will be completed by the end of 2022....

caliber.az

 

[TheInsider]

“Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.”

TAKS means Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi/Tank Atış Kontrol Sistemi
(In English, Gun or Tank Fire Control System)

What is wrong with that first statement?

A version of TAKS was started to be developed by Aselsan for 76mm naval gun in 2006 after Volkan 1 was successfully qualified for Leopard1 in 2006. Also a much improved version of this TAKS was introduced in 2022 for the 127mm naval gun.

TAKS was first started in 2002 for Leopard1; then qualified on tanks in 2006 (and the last tank was delivered in 2010). Then it was improved as Volkan 2 for Altay and Leopard 2 tanks when it was supposed to be qualified in to tanks in 2022. Also in 2022 a version of this FCS called VolkanM was introduced specifically developed for the M60TM tanks.

Just by reading that first sentence , in your head, you have decided it is “wrong” with no real substance. Interesting!!

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

The last Leopard-1 Tank modernized by ASELSAN

The Pr

www.defenceturkey.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) - More Precise Than Ever

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) Historical Background M60TM Main Battle Tank is further modernization of M60T which itself is extensive modernization of M60A1/A3. In 2017, The Fırat Modernization Project was initiated with the experiences gained from Operation Euphrates Shield (Fırat Kalkanı Harekatı) to increa...

forum.warthunder.com

Türkiye presents Volkan-II tank fire control system for Altay tank - PHOTO

The qualification activities of the Volkan-II tank fire control system, developed by ASELSAN for the Altay main battle tank, will be completed by the end of 2022....

caliber.az

Volkan is the first developed FCS. Land FCS and naval FCS differ because of how things move on the sea. Volkan is a direct predecessor of Altay FCS while TAKS is a cousin.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Volkan is the first developed FCS. Land FCS and naval FCS differ because of how things move on the sea. Volkan is a direct predecessor of Altay FCS while TAKS is a cousin.

Well! You have just told us a summary of exactly what I have already written in my post. You needn’t have bothered. But you have still not answered my question about what is wrong with the statement I made.
I guess it is not in your vocabulary to say “misunderstood” or “sorry”.

 

[Anmdt]

“Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.”

TAKS means Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi/Tank Atış Kontrol Sistemi
(In English, Gun or Tank Fire Control System)

What is wrong with that first statement?

A version of TAKS was started to be developed by Aselsan for 76mm naval gun in 2006 after Volkan 1 was successfully qualified for Leopard1 in 2006. Also a much improved version of this TAKS was introduced in 2022 for the 127mm naval gun.

TAKS was first started in 2002 for Leopard1; then qualified on tanks in 2006 (and the last tank was delivered in 2010). Then it was improved as Volkan 2 for Altay and Leopard 2 tanks when it was supposed to be qualified in to tanks in 2022. Also in 2022 a version of this FCS called VolkanM was introduced specifically developed for the M60TM tanks.

Just by reading that first sentence , in your head, you have decided it is “wrong” with no real substance. Interesting!!

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

The last Leopard-1 Tank modernized by ASELSAN

The Pr

www.defenceturkey.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) - More Precise Than Ever

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) Historical Background M60TM Main Battle Tank is further modernization of M60T which itself is extensive modernization of M60A1/A3. In 2017, The Fırat Modernization Project was initiated with the experiences gained from Operation Euphrates Shield (Fırat Kalkanı Harekatı) to increa...

forum.warthunder.com

Türkiye presents Volkan-II tank fire control system for Altay tank - PHOTO

The qualification activities of the Volkan-II tank fire control system, developed by ASELSAN for the Altay main battle tank, will be completed by the end of 2022....

caliber.az

You are right, actually both FCS relies on the same mathematical model of ballistic course prediction that was developed by Aselsan in coordination with an university years ago. Naval and Land FCS has additional-different parameters for calibration and due to the nature of naval FCS there is a calibration mechanism to update parameters with a feed back from FCR or main 3D radar. Aselsan later worked with Armerkom to adapt this mathematical model for naval cannons (with system identification trials conducted at sea, as salinity or humidity has certain effects in the course and these trials are necessary for any region for cannon to operate). Target motion and cannon stabilization are the excluded matters.

 

[manifesto]

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/SIPER_ENG.pdf

Siper Air Defence System's datasheet.

 

[Afif]

It seems they are talking about SIPER block ii (interceptor developed by tubitak)

1. System max. interception range :150km
2. System interception Altitude :30km


Weirdly enough, there is no mention of TBMs in its target list. Yet it can intercept up to 30km. (Usually, no air breathing targets goes that high. So it definitely has some capability against TBMs.)


ÇAFRAD'S UMR can track up to 2000 targets. And ERIS is its land version. So I would assume, as the long range surveillance radar of the SIPER system, it also has the same capability.

However, number of tracks for multi-functional fire control radar (ÇFAKR) in each battery is surprisingly low, only 100.

For example, SAMP/T NG's multi-function radar GF300 or KRONOS GRAND can track up to 1000 targets or more.
(They can also be integrated with GM403 in SIPER like Set-up)

Last but not the least, fire control system of a SIPER battery can guide up to 20x interceptors against 10x target. Which means 2x interceptors assigned to each individual target in normal operational procedure.

 

[Zafer]

View attachment 58849

It seems they are talking about SIPER block ii (interceptor developed by tubitak)

1. System max. interception range :150km
2. System interception Altitude :30km


Weirdly enough, there is no mention of TBMs in its target list. Yet it can intercept up to 30km. (Usually, no air breathing targets goes that high. So it definitely has some capability against TBMs.)


ÇAFRAD'S UMR can track up to 2000 targets. And ERIS is its land version. I assume, as the long range surveillance radar of the SIPER system, it has the same capability.

However, number of tracks for multi-functional fire control radar (ÇFAKR) in each battery is surprisingly low, only 100.

For example, SAMP/T NG's multi-function radar GF300 or KRONOS GRAND cam track up to 1000 targets or more.
(They can also be integrated with GM403 in SIPER like Set-up)

It can guide up to 20x interceptors against 10x target. Which means 2x interceptors assigned to each individual target in normal operational procedure.

I wonder if any more than 100 targets ever populated a battle theater or ever will.