TR Air Defence Programs

[Era_shield]

Current Gökdeniz even Göker systems are heavy and bulky. They engage too much space on the ship.


Imagine as if Göker used 30x173cal smart ammunition, the gun system would be lighter and more compact.
View attachment 58435

Again imagine as if Istif Class Frigates had:

Port and starboard: 2 X 30mm Göker
FORE and AFT : 2 X LEVENT


And 8 cell VLS

35mm ATOM/AHEAD type munitions are already too small to be effective against some threats, which is why we are still putting Phalanx on new ships. If anything we should move to 40mm ATOM or larger.

 

[TheInsider]

30mm airburst ammo has limited stopping power and it is more effective against infantry and smaller drones. It also has a shorter range.
30mm has an effective range of 2000m, a nominal range of 3000m, and a maximum range of 4000m. 35mm has an effective range of 4000m.

USA 30 mm (1.2") Bushmaster II Mark 46 Mod 1 and 40 mm (1.57") Bushmaster II - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

Oerlikon GDF - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AzeriTank]

So what? Do you think i didn't know?

@Yasar instead of 35mm , 30mm Göker wouldn't be more compact as well as effective?

If 30mm hits the target from 3km away, 35mm hits from 4km and with supersonic antiship missiles(even hypersonic) thats very important.
Also, i believe Goker has higher(around 90 degree) elevation that Gokdeniz doesnt have because of design differences. That 90 degree is important for cruise missiles that goes to top attack mode at the end.

 

[AzeriTank]

He says its bulky, of course its bulky, you store more than 35mm ammunition inside, the more you have, longer you are safe as reloading it means you are defenseless. Thats the only advantage of 30mm, but we talk about a ship that has enough space

 

[Yasar_TR]

So what? Do you think i didn't know?

@Yasar instead of 35mm , 30mm Göker wouldn't be more compact as well as effective?

Compact? Yes.
Effective? No.
Anything less than 35mm for air burst is not going to cut it. I would rather go for a 40mm air burst round for a ship’s CIWS.
With supersonic and even hypersonic missiles becoming more widespread, it is important to intercept these missiles as far away from the ship as possible. A CIWS like Phalanx that has electronics that engages a missile at 2500m, can actually effectively hit that missile under 1500m. If there is a second target to engage as well, then even if it hits it, most of the debris carrying enough kinetic energy will damage the ship extensively. A Brahmos travelling at around 2.4mach at terminal stage has under 2 seconds to hit the ship at 1500 metres. This is a 3 ton missile. OK it will be lighter at terminal stage having expended most of its fuel. But will still have a lot of mass travelling at that speed.
Gokdeniz will form a steel wall at a distance of 4000m from the ship. Theoretically it should stop multiple targets coming in with no danger of fallout or collateral damage.

 

[boredaf]

I would rather go for a 40mm air burst round for a ship’s CIWS.

We do have Atom 40mm airburst round and Şahin (Hawk) system to use them with, but their range is extremely limited. I hope Aselsan is working on a longer range versions not just naval air defense but as an overall option.

 

[Tornadoss]

We do have Atom 40mm airburst round and Şahin (Hawk) system to use them with, but their range is extremely limited. I hope Aselsan is working on a longer range versions not just naval air defense but as an overall option.

But it's based on 40 mm grenade. Different type of munition.

 

[boredaf]

But it's based on 40 mm grenade. Different type of munition.

I know but it also has a smart cap and can be programmed, so the caliber isn't exactly a mystery to them.

 

[Tornadoss]

I know but it also has a smart cap and can be programmed, so the caliber isn't exactly a mystery to them.

Indeed it shouldn't be a problem. With a gun similar to 40 mm Oto Melara Twin compact gun it can be turned into good CIWS system.

 

[UkroTurk]

Indeed it shouldn't be a problem. With a gun similar to 40 mm Oto Melara Twin compact gun it can be turned into good CIWS system.

They used it as multipurpose gun against ships and helicopters. İf you use it with airburst ammunition, the gun will be just CIWS. You couldn't damage a warship with airburst ammunitions.

Need to analyze your enemy's capabilities and weapons then need to create defense systems.

UMTAS + SUNGURs will be more effective than twinforty .

 

[Afif]

To shoot down incoming threats (subsonic/supersonic cruise missiles, loitering ammunitions, drones and helicopters) I believe there could a reliable middle option in between CIWS and quick reaction missiles, using the main gun of the ship. Adding unprecedented operational flexibility to ship's both defensive and offensive capability.

To get an idea what we are talking about here, let's disscuse a system that is already in active service, the STRALES system. Successfully developed by Leonardo.

Which includes three main components: a 76/62 naval gun, DART guided ammunition and a Radio Frequency Guidance System with associated electronic.

1. The DART projectile is similar in many aspects to other hyper-velocity systems, for example the Starstreak SAM missile's multi-dart warhead, but is a guided gun projectile with radio controls and a proximity fuze for low level engagement (up to 2 meters over the sea). DART is fired at 1,200 m/s (3,900 ft/s), can reach 5 km range in only 5 seconds, and can perform up to 40G maneuver. The DART projectile is made of two parts: the forward is free to rotate and has two small canard wings for flight control. The aft part has the 2.5 kg warhead (with tungsten cubes and the 3A millimetric wave new fuse), six fixed wings and the radio receivers.

2. The guidance system is Command Line of Sight (CLOS). It uses a TX antenna installed on gun. The radio-command for them is provided on a broadcast data-link (Ka Band).

The DART projectiles are guided by a radio beam that follows the target by means of homing system. The projectile is fitted with a proximity fuze, but there were many hits during the firing trials.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition is the only weapon system in the world which can ensure high level performance (at a lower cost than dedicated anti-missile systems) in the engagement of manouevring supersonic missiles with high lateral g force. The system is very effective also in the engagement of fast manouevring little boats.

The Strales 76mm system with DART guided ammunition

The first lot of DART/STRALES 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy’s ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

www.leonardo.com

The first lot of DART 76mm guided ammunition, produced by OTO Melara, was successfully tested at the end of March, 2014. The firing trials were conducted on board one of the Italian Navy's ships equipped with Strales 76mm SR and Selex NA25 fire control system.

Conclusion- I believe Aselsan and MKE has the technical know-how and necessary infrastructure to develop similar system for Turkish and friendly countries Navies based on MKE 76mm Naval gun.

 

[UkroTurk]

Gokdeniz will form a steel wall at a distance of 4000m from t

I have an another question: how self defense systems -that combined with ESSM( Hisar-N) plus Gökdeniz 35mm - could manage not to engage own SAMs.
The scenario:
1)Your radar detected very fast Cruise missiles flying toward your ship.
2) You send 2 ESSM/Hisar N at 10-5km distance
3) anti-ship missiles start maneuvering and managed to come close .
4) at 4 km distance ESSMs chase Antiship missiles.
5 ) Then your Gökdeniz 35m start bursting.
6) Finally Gökdeniz kills ESSMs instead of Antiships.

So combination of 4km ranged CIWS with SAMs is too much complicated.

İ can't imagine how could RAM/Levent/SUNGUR with Millenium gun/Gökdeniz CIWS combination manage to identify the enemy missiles.

Maybe it is the reason Germans don't use Millenium gun with RAM.

 

[Afif]

If ESSM or HISAR-D misses its target on first attempt there is no way they can take a 180 degrees turn to chase the target again. (Even with a second pulse motor)

Only time a missile can take a 180 degrees turn when its primary motor is running. (Even that is going to greatly reduce its effective range)
Like how some WVR missile do it.

However, at 10km Hisar-D or ESSM motor would be almost burned out.

Then again, chances of ESSM and HISAR-D missing the target is quite slim as they both can perform up to 40G maneuver or more, while subsonic as well as brahmos type missiles can only perform up to 12G maneuver.

In a nutshell, interceptors can comfortably follow the targets even when they do sharp maneuvers. (Also, to maximize the chances of interception, usually 2x ESSM is assigned to each incoming high value target)

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I have an another question: how self defense systems -that combined with ESSM( Hisar-N) plus Gökdeniz 35mm - could manage not to engage own SAMs.
The scenario:
1)Your radar detected very fast Cruise missiles flying toward your ship.
2) You send 2 ESSM/Hisar N at 10-5km distance
3) anti-ship missiles start maneuvering and managed to come close .
4) at 4 km distance ESSMs chase Antiship missiles.
5 ) Then your Gökdeniz 35m start bursting.
6) Finally Gökdeniz kills ESSMs instead of Antiships.

So combination of 4km ranged CIWS with SAMs is too much complicated.

İ can't imagine how could RAM/Levent/SUNGUR with Millenium gun/Gökdeniz CIWS combination manage to identify the enemy missiles.

Maybe it is the reason Germans don't use Millenium gun with RAM.

Hisar N will be longer range and will destroy ASM far away (20-50km) from reach of Gögdeniz . If Hisar N fails and AntiShip missile gets too closee 5-10km than closse air defence can fire and destroy it .

 

[Yasar_TR]

Conclusion- I believe Aselsan and MKE has the technical know-how and necessary infrastructure to develop similar system for Turkish and friendly countries Navies based on MKE 76mm Naval gun.

Aselsan, since 2006 has been developing a Fire Control System called TAKS. This has been upgraded further during the course of the last 3 years in to newer and more accurate versions.
Both 127mm and 76 mm guns have been fired with great success, controlled by this system. It has full control over the entire specified range of the guns against surface and aerial threats including fast aircrafts and missiles.
Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.
This system enables non guided and relatively inexpensive rounds to be effective against threats with precision. On surface ships it complements and becomes an integral part of the AD system.

For the future, when the guided rounds become available it will only add to the effectiveness and high precision of the system.

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

 

[Quasar]

There is no way they are quadpacking current SIPER interceptor. (Did you see how fat its booster?)

However, even when they quadpack the later block of SIPER, G40 will still have its relevance.

New block of SIPER are expensive and meant for long range and high altitude.

They are not (economically) feasible for quick reaction point defence.

That's where G40 comes in.
It would be similar to ESSM (expect ESSM has TVC while G40 will have orientation control system. Probbaly something like CAMM has)

On the other hand, SIPER will have similar role to SM-2 interceptor.

Agreed that current ATMACA booster for SİPER understandably seems to use a readly available booster for the sake of having an operational long range SAM as soon as possible, however like in the case of BARAK, SİPER booster is open to eveluation which may be focusing on VLS use I belive

 

[uçuyorum]

View attachment 58491

Agreed that current ATMACA booster for SİPER understandably seems to use a readly available booster for the sake of having an operational long range SAM as soon as possible, however like in the case of BARAK, SİPER booster is open to eveluation which may be focusing on VLS use I belive

Original Siper missile is meant to be longer without booster isn’t it

 

[Afif]

Original Siper missile is meant to be longer without booster isn’t it

@Anmdt previously Said, even the new interceptor will get booster eventually. Like SM-2 series.

 

[TheInsider]

Aselsan, since 2006 has been developing a Fire Control System called TAKS. This has been upgraded further during the course of the last 3 years in to newer and more accurate versions.
Both 127mm and 76 mm guns have been fired with great success, controlled by this system. It has full control over the entire specified range of the guns against surface and aerial threats including fast aircrafts and missiles.
Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.
This system enables non guided and relatively inexpensive rounds to be effective against threats with precision. On surface ships it complements and becomes an integral part of the AD system.

For the future, when the guided rounds become available it will only add to the effectiveness and high precision of the system.

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

Wrong FCS of Altay develop with the experience gained from Leopard 1T Volkan modernization project.

Later Aselsan further improved FCS of Altay after the project is vastly delayed.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wrong FCS of Altay develop with the experience gained from Leopard 1T Volkan modernization project.

Later Aselsan further improved FCS of Altay after the project is vastly delayed.

“Altay tank has a version of this TAKS as well.”

TAKS means Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi/Tank Atış Kontrol Sistemi
(In English, Gun or Tank Fire Control System)

What is wrong with that first statement?

A version of TAKS was started to be developed by Aselsan for 76mm naval gun in 2006 after Volkan 1 was successfully qualified for Leopard1 in 2006. Also a much improved version of this TAKS was introduced in 2022 for the 127mm naval gun.

TAKS was first started in 2002 for Leopard1; then qualified on tanks in 2006 (and the last tank was delivered in 2010). Then it was improved as Volkan 2 for Altay and Leopard 2 tanks when it was supposed to be qualified in to tanks in 2022. Also in 2022 a version of this FCS called VolkanM was introduced specifically developed for the M60TM tanks.

Just by reading that first sentence , in your head, you have decided it is “wrong” with no real substance. Interesting!!

Aselsan 76 mm TAKS

Aselsan 76 mm Milli Deniz Top Atış Kontrol Sistemi TAKS

www.millisavunma.com

The last Leopard-1 Tank modernized by ASELSAN

The Pr

www.defenceturkey.com

Barbaros’ 127 MM Firings Confirmed

Turkish Navy’s The Barbaros Class Frigate Half-Life Modernization Project continues with gun test fires. According to ASELSAN’s A Bulletin magazine, the Gun Fire Control System, developed within the project’s scope, was tested on the TCG BARBAROS Frigate.

www.turdef.com

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) - More Precise Than Ever

M60TM (VOLKAN-M) Historical Background M60TM Main Battle Tank is further modernization of M60T which itself is extensive modernization of M60A1/A3. In 2017, The Fırat Modernization Project was initiated with the experiences gained from Operation Euphrates Shield (Fırat Kalkanı Harekatı) to increa...

forum.warthunder.com

Türkiye presents Volkan-II tank fire control system for Altay tank - PHOTO

The qualification activities of the Volkan-II tank fire control system, developed by ASELSAN for the Altay main battle tank, will be completed by the end of 2022

caliber.az