TR Air Defence Programs

[Huelague]

They are just idiots

I understand your reasons.

 

[Aqerdf]

I like all of it.

But my inner armchair general is not comfy with some of the things.


Such as:

GÜRZ's cannon should have higher RPM. 500/550 RPM could create achilles heel situation. Even with smart ATOM munitions.

Energetic fragments for ATOM...

GÜRZ should also be able to carry Gökdoğan, instead of Bozdoğan or with Bozdoğan.

GÜRZ should have passive C-UAS. Like it's other Panstsir-esque concept. Mr. Çay said this i think, and he's very correct.

GÜRZ should have additional C-RAM capability, with it's Bozdoğan missiles and energetic fragment loaded ATOM munitions.

BURÇ should have 6-barrel 20mm, and C-RAM capability.

If M113 can take that, PARS 8X8 Scout is definately can take it.

Future BURÇ versions should have high RPM single-barrel 30x113, 30x173 and 35x228mm cannons.

So 30mm smart fuze is needed.

Additionally, BURÇ too should have passive C-UAS.

And it's not just for us. In my opinion, these are needed for BURÇ's export too.

3-barrel (probably 750 RPM) 20mm is slow for far and fast targets. Or multi-targets.

It's competitors are:

Germans with single-barrel,high-rpm cannons, with 30/35mm smart fuzes.

Americans with 30x113 cannon and smart fuze.

And Chinese with i think both slow 30/35 single-barrel cannons (like us) and 6+ barrel 30mm gatlings. I don't know if they have 30/35mm ATOM-like munitions..


TLDR: GÜRZ needs 35mm revolver cannon.
And it's Bozdoğan needs C-RAM capability.
And acoustic-EO drone detector + small jammer.

BURÇ needs 6-barrel 20mm for starter.
And C-RAM function to build upon that.
And acoustic-EO drone detector + small jammer.

 

[UkroTurk]

Future BURÇ versions should have high RPM single-barrel 30x113, 30x173 and 35x228mm cannons.

İf Burç had 35x228 , you would get Gürz.

BURÇ should have 6-barrel 20mm, and C-RAM capability.

If M113 can take

Turkish Army make threats assessment then engineers solve the problems.


I think triple barrel is enough for UAVs, drones.

Regarding Bozdoğan, the missile is longer and heavier. Also these AESA Plates could supply with enough data for Bozdoğans range?


İ hope you didn't make irony and your questions were real.

 

[Aqerdf]

If Burç also have 35x228 single barrel / high rpm cannon, you wouldn't get Gürz.

You would get our own Skyranger 35. And probably with better selling margin. Being Turkish, less cost, no techno-political strings being attached, etc.

Gürz is something like Skyranger-NASAMS combo. Or Pantsir-Tor combo.

----------------------------------

Regarding Gürz and Gökdoğan:

Gökdemir does not have it's own radar, for it's own Gökdoğan missile. Afaik data is feeded to Gökdemir from other radars via data-links and networking. Same thing can be done to Gürz, if it's gonna carry Gökdoğan.

Why i'm wanting this ? It will create more flexibility for our troops on the battlefield. And with these, it will get more stronger in foreign competitions i think.

---------------------------------

Regarding Burç and 6-barrel gatling. I still don't think 3-barrel is good for an A-A mission.

You also can't comfortably engage Switchblade/FPV type drones because it doesn't have airburst munition. Fast targets don't like high rpm guns, sub-1000 rpm 20mm is definately not an high rpm gun. You will say "Sungur/Levent is there too" but still.. An air defense weapon shouldn't have low rpm gun in my opinion.

-------------------------------

Didn't much understand the last part.

Does it contain some stones ? May i ask...?

--------------------------------

Edit: I meant Gökdemir but wrongfully i wroted Göksur.

 

[Sanchez]

I think this is the big surprise from Gürbağ that was alluded to.

MM-GIDS
Short Range AD.
20mm M197 gun, 8km range MANPAD, and anti-drone kamikaze drones.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683725354303737856

 

[UkroTurk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683753463887396867

MIDLAS being shown off for the first time at IDEF'23!

Quadpacked Missiles btw

MIDLAS
SIPER BLOK I, ESSM and Quadpack HISAR-D RF
View attachment 59514
@SavunmaSanayiST.com

Quadpacked Hisar-D

 

[UkroTurk]

Roketsan Levent

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683743624247255040

LEVENT

Göksur vs Levent ! Which one would you prefer?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

LEVENT

Göksur vs Levent ! Which one would you prefer?

I have no doubt that both will be excellent systems but we need to know AESA radar and missile capabilities for comparison. Radar detection ranges, jamming resistance, missile ranges, reaction times and mmaneuverabilityof missiles are important.

 

[UkroTurk]

Guidance passive RF and IIR
Diameter:128mm
Weight :70kg
Range:11km

Platform:Navy/Air

So Levent differs from Bozdoğan with Passive radar seeker, shape and weight. ( İ don't think it has datalink capability)

You could launch it from Bayraktar onto radar sources as anti radiation missile .


Levent launcher seems lighter and more compact than Göksur's.

 

[CAN_TR]

Credits to Arda Mevlütoglu @orko_8

HISAR-A , HISAR-O, SIPER-Blk1

 

[uçuyorum]

Credits to Arda Mevlütoglu @orko_8

HISAR-A , HISAR-O, SIPER-Blk1
View attachment 59520

Hisar B? You mean O / D ?

 

[UkroTurk]

Credits @Quasar

Siper air defense missile
Without booster 70km range
Length 538cm.

(Diameter235mm) speculation

Hisar O (IIR)
20km range
447cm


Also another speculation
HİSAR-O+ RF Füzesi
25km range, 16km+ altitude
4.6m length

 

[Radko]

Credits @Quasar
View attachment 59551

What is the taped thing

 

[UkroTurk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683933373960712194

They are deliberately making us puzzled


Siper Block 1 just 12cm longer than Siper B O. Thanks 12cm it flies more 30km


Where is the range of Siper with booster?

Siper differs from Hisar O with GPS / two way Datalink.

Hisar O has INS but doesn't have GPS.
Hisar O has one-way Datalink but doesn't have two-way!

 

[Afif]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683933373960712194

View attachment 59554

View attachment 59555
They are deliberately making us puzzled


Siper Block 1 just 12cm longer than Siper B O. Thanks 12cm it flies more 30km


Where is the range of Siper with booster?

Both stated range includes booster.
Otherwise, they are just two version of HISAR O RF.

And I don’t think it is too surprising.

AIM-120 C-7 and AIM-120 C-8/D both uses the same motor. Yet the later has substantial increase in the range due to upgrade in software and guidance electronics.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Hydro GIDS

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1683912727213883392

 

[Aqerdf]

Big..

Göksur can fire both Bozdoğan and also Gökdoğan missiles...

via Defence Turk

Savaş gemilerinin yeni savunması GÖKSUR!

ASELSAN, deniz platformları için hava savunma çözümlerine BOZDOĞAN-DH füzelerini kullanan GÖKSUR deniz hava savunma sistemini ekledi.

www.defenceturk.net

 

[uçuyorum]

Big..

Göksur can fire both Bozdoğan and also Gökdoğan missiles...

via Defence Turk

Savaş gemilerinin yeni savunması GÖKSUR!

ASELSAN, deniz platformları için hava savunma çözümlerine BOZDOĞAN-DH füzelerini kullanan GÖKSUR deniz hava savunma sistemini ekledi.

www.defenceturk.net

Doesn't that make this not a ram equivalent but essentially something that gets into ESSM hybrid territory?

 

[Anmdt]

LEVENT

Göksur vs Levent ! Which one would you prefer?

Levent utilizes favorly affordable radars for 360 degree coverage, which is logical to cut prices down since the backward facing radars are merely for scanning, not tracking. If they upscale it to 20+ missiles this system could be an ultimate anti-drone, anti-loitering munition protection system with the Block 1 missiles. These missiles are also light on the weight thus has smaller logistic footprint and could be replenished by personnel without needing a winch or elevator. Could be affordable by many navies and integrated as a standalone solution.

Goksur outperforms Levent in terms of radar and missile performance; range, tracking&classification and missile range&kinetics performance. This leads to higher acquisition cost, larger logistical footprint, necessity of winch and elevator for the missile installation. Becomes suitable for large corvettes and frigates/destroyers.

In my opinion both should be devoloped and procured for different platforms. Levent would suit to YTKB, auxillaries, OPVs, USVs, Landing ships/crafts while Goksur would be beneficial for LHD, Ada, I-Class, TF-2000 and others that may emerge within the given range.

For the obvious reasons Goksur outperforms with a better radar, better missile (Bozdogan-Gokdogan-?), but Levent provides the best logistical footprint, decent protection at an affordable price. Levent was first critisized for the radar facing-angle, yet these are 2-way scanning aesa radar that may cover the horizon sufficiently but a better focus up on the sky, hence the loitering-diving drones-munitions.

As i expected i say that we should have all as now we are an exporter for these systems and there are potential customers for these non-existent kind of systems. I also believe Aselsan should continue development of hybrid systems (gun-missile combined Goker-D)

 

[Anmdt]

rumor is that for FACs there wil be point deffence and AESA?? is it related with Levent or a different solution? if true off course

Who says it is rumored? It is clear as water that TTFAB will be equipped with independent PDMS system. It has been issued on the RfI/RfP years ago. And not just because RAM was not able to be procured, Sapan PDMS project existed specially for TTFAB.