TR Air Defence Programs

[boredaf]

Another thought think small scale internal conflict so rather than a town think a village, as it seems BURC is designed for low-intensity conflict (LIC).

So if we are at war with a neighboring country and internal uprising was triggered. We send this to villages that are suspected of attacking a base nearby. So the dude's will go in and paint target, the system rains in missiles. Terror groups send in Quadcopter with improvised or air dropped mortar rounds like in Ukraine, the system takes that down. Think this is attached to a search convoy from a local Kalekol of few Cobra2/Ejder/Vuran with limited resources.

Mate, you're making up weird scenarios and then coming up with convoluted solutions.

A vehicle with 4 anti-tank missiles is not "raining missiles", it doesn't even make sense to use Umtas or Cirit against anything other than armored targets. And in a scenario against kamikaze drones of any kind, it is better to have more aa capability than to have anti armor missiles. Main gun for FPV drones and aa missiles for anything bigger.

Your previous edit was weird as well, Sungur has 8 kms of range, if a convoy is long enough to be outside of its engagement range then that convoy is already fucked. Having anti armor missiles doesn't help that at all.

 

[Terrain]

Dude, how many villages does one Kalekol looks after? 5 maybe 10. So in an uprising how many multiple, single tasked vehicle as you've said can you attach a search party.

In this multirole concept, there are 4 Cirits(enough to destroy a civilian vehicle), 4 Sungur's and 2 Anti tanks. How many vehicles do you think a village has? All we need is to suppress fire with cobras and pin point few important targets for BURC or BURC on itself can do it. Like a small scale command control.

 

[boredaf]

Dude, how many villages does one Kalekol looks after? 5 maybe 10. So in an uprising how many multiple, single tasked vehicle as you've said can you attach a search party.

In this multirole concept, there are 4 Cirits(enough to destroy a civilian vehicle), 4 Sungur's and 2 Anti tanks. How many vehicles do you think a village has? All we need is to suppress fire with cobras and pin point few important targets for BURC or BURC on itself could do it. Like a small scale command control.

Have you ever been to a village? You don't send a single vehicle to somewhere isolated and away from any possible support, it is like asking to be ambushed. And if you are sending infantry with it as you should, then trusting their safety and lives to a single jack of all trades vehicle that has to look out for both aerial and armored or other motorized threats while also trying to give fire support makes no sense. If someone told me that while I was in the military I would've been worried as fuck because that crew will have way too many balls to juggle for no reason.

 

[Terrain]

You are presenting this as if all villages are far away from Kalekol's.

I've seen 4 villages surrounding around 5km distance of one Jandarma Karakol. So to think of a scenario where some villages are signaling threats. How can you respond? And how many vehicles are there in one Kalekol? But we all think it's all outside of our reach and that we have to call air support but if we are in a 2.5 war(Two external, one internal) or 1.5, can we afford to task aircrafts or multiple vehicles? Maybe one or two multirole within a task force is enough to show presence because that's all we can do show that there is still a operating state in full scale wars.

Again we are just brain storming.

 

[Terrain]

Have you ever been to a village? You don't send a single vehicle to somewhere isolated and away from any possible support, it is like asking to be ambushed.

I think you are a bit puzzled because of those two dots that I've put on that map as it was just to show an idea. I know that we can not leave any vehicle without infantry support and the lessons from syria.

So it depends on the scale of the war, with infantry support or within a convoy entering or surrounding the village, depending on the village or just within Kalekol.

 

[Fighter_35]

HİSAR-D Block 2 based on ROEKTSAN's scaled MİDLAS model from IDEF'23 View attachment 60690

Do we have any info about its range and maximum altitude?

 

[Kaan Azman]

Do we have any info about its range and maximum altitude?

Nope but it likely gonna be like HİSAR-D Block 1 which is like HİSAR-RF

 

[Radonsider]

So like Siper Ürün-1 w/foldable fins/strakes but without a booster

 

[Kaan Azman]

SİPER B1 also has GPS supported guidance, aside from a booster as a difference from HİSAR RF. GPS likely supports midcourse navigation much like AIM-120D

 

[UkroTurk]

İ don't believe, Hisar RF has max 35km range. I think at least 60km.
Look at the range of Siper B1 with booster: 100km

 

[Windchime]

1) By reliably I mean with a kill probability over 50%.
Previously I thought without kill vehicle the chance against this kind of hypersonic balistic targets was much lower 20%/25%.

(Also, as USN planning to shoot down hypersonic targets with SM-6 which doesn't even have kill vehicle or end game maneuverability enhancement, it inspire confidence in my hypothesis)

2) And the reason they developed PAC-3 is to garunteee a hit with a kill probability of 95% with two interceptor assigned against each target.

The most important reason for going HTK is reliably neutralizing the warhead. Just shooting down doesn't suffice when it comes to ballistic missiles, even TBMs, as demonstrated during Gulf War. You don't necessarily need a HTK kill vehicle if what you want is just shooting down ballistic missiles of longer range/higher speed.

Reading from his other posts he is not the guy to miss such basic info.
I think his point stands. And afaik, small enhance lethality warhead is complementary and meant for airfracfts and cruise missiles. It is unlikely to have same effect on hypersonic targets, unless interceptor kineticcally slams into it. That's the whole point of PAC-3. Which would have totally obliterated the missile in the first place. Thus, it is very likely that it was a PAC-2 GEM.

Yes, I've got that part wrong. I've wrongly assumed that PAC-3 LE acts like KE rod warheads developed by Raytheon, but those are mere steel/titanium pellets. Though the reason they don't use LE for the sake of intercepting ballistic missiles is the same as the reason I've given above. Case in point, near-miss interception methods also works against ballistic missiles or hypersonic targets if it is meant for such threats. Korean M-SAM block II which has BMD capability for instance utilized KE rod in case there's a near miss.

 

[Kaan Azman]

TÜBİTAK SAGE General Manager Gürcan Okumuş: "SİPER Blok 2's range can be multiplied by 1.5 to 2 times with a booster"
So our dreams of a SİPER Block 2ER are likely to come true

So, this thing will probably be nearly 8 m in length. Mk41 Strike Length measures at nearly 8 m and SM-6 fills nearly the entire length.

 

[I_Love_F16]

TÜBİTAK SAGE General Manager Gürcan Okumuş: "SİPER Blok 2's range can be multiplied by 1.5 to 2 times with a booster"
So our dreams of a SİPER Block 2ER are likely to come true

So, this thing will probably be nearly 8 m in length. Mk41 Strike Length measures at nearly 8 m and SM-6 fills nearly the entire length.

View attachment 60727

I know that this is not the right thread but someone has to ask him about Gökhan and Akbaba. There is no news regarding the development of our ramjet missiles lately. And if I’m not mistaken, they were supposed to show Gökhan in late 2022 ?

 

[Kaan Azman]

Akbaba is a solid fuel ramjet missile and ROKETSAN is handling it.

Gökhan should start its tests this year if I remember correctly

 

[UkroTurk]

SİPER Blok 2's range can be multiplied by 1.5 to 2 times with a booster

SiperB1 with booster has 100km range so should we assume Siper B1's max range without booster is 35-40km?

Again Hisar RF happens to have 35-40 max range. How booster could multiply 2 times, fascinating.

 

[Radonsider]

SiperB1 with booster has 100km range so should we assume Siper B1's max range without booster is 35-40km?

Again Hisar RF happens to have 35-40 max range. How booster could multiply 2 times, fascinating.

We have had tests with Siper B1 that exceeded 120km

 

[UkroTurk]

We have had tests with Siper B1 that exceeded 120km

İ miscalculated. Türkçe düşündüm . 1,5 -2 katı gibi. Yüzde 50, yüzde 100 artış oluyor demekki.
So without booster siperB0 and Hisar RF's max range might be 60-70km.

 

[Anmdt]

İ miscalculated. Türkçe düşündüm . 1,5 -2 katı gibi. Yüzde 50, yüzde 100 artış oluyor demekki.
So without booster siperB0 and Hisar RF's max range might be 60-70km.

Different altitudes for each of the missile's roles, thus multiplier is not the same. B2 reaches an higher altitude, 150+ km is so far is the alleged effective range. But anyone with common engineering sense may figure out that fella will go further.
So 1.5 to 2x may take us above 300km and a decent altitude. Altitude matters more in my opinion.

 

[Radonsider]

Different altitudes for each of the missile's roles, thus multiplier is not the same. B2 reaches an higher altitude, 150+ km is so far is the alleged effective range. But anyone with common engineering sense may figure out that fella will go further.
So 1.5 to 2x may take us above 300km and a decent altitude. Altitude matters more in my opinion.

From ASELSAN's Siper brochure

>30km system max interception altitude
>150km system max interception range


But I guess that these are (at least range figure) is the "effective" one, similar to Hisar brochure's where effective range is listed as "max interception range"

 

[Kaan Azman]

And going higher means we might start seeing thruster based controls for future SİPER missiles. Anti Ballistic capability focused missiles have it because of air getting thinner and fins losing their ability to manuever the missile.