TR Air Defence Programs

[Kaan Azman]

By my understanding, this is not just about adding Mk19 with Atom on a SARP but a software addition to Sarp consoles, maybe a separate C-UAS mode the operator can activate and use easily.

I would very like to see a Mk19 on Sarp in video though. I wonder how it is different than Şahin directly.

Well, ŞAHİN actually uses SARP RCWS, but it has some changes to fire control and most importantly Mk19 fitted with the programmers and stuff for ATOM munitions. You still need the latter to have Mk19 work in C-UAS role.

But yes, it is more like a software upgrade and easily dispensable throughout platforms using the RCWS. Our 4x4s can act as non-dedicated C-UAS systems now including with machine guns.

and yes Strong AI, I really want to see a 7.62 mm gatling SARP-L shredding some drones like a micro Phalanx CIWS.

Actually hell, our UGVs can join this train too as the majority uses SARP RCWS. Just think of an TUNGA UGV protecting our infantry with a 7.62 mm gatling/12.7 mm HMG/40 mm ATOM.

By the way, if anyone's confused, you can look at the picture in the tweet showing a SARP with 12.7 mm tracking a drone. The console screen reads "12.7 mm M33"

 

[uçuyorum]

Roketsan had stuff like burç with 3 barrel 20mm and 20mm phalanx like system but those kinda disappeared

 

[Sanchez]

Well, ŞAHİN actually uses SARP RCWS, but it has some changes to fire control and most importantly Mk19 fitted with the programmers and stuff for ATOM munitions. You still need the latter to have Mk19 work in C-UAS role.

But yes, it is more like a software upgrade and easily dispensable throughout platforms using the RCWS. Our 4x4s can act as non-dedicated C-UAS systems now including with machine guns.

and yes Strong AI, I really want to see a 7.62 mm gatling SARP-L shredding some drones like a micro Phalanx CIWS.

Actually hell, our UGVs can join this train too as the majority uses SARP RCWS. Just think of an TUNGA UGV protecting our infantry with a 7.62 mm gatling/12.7 mm HMG/40 mm ATOM

I'm 90% sure Şahin is just one of the fruits of Aselsan's 40mm Atom project for base defense based on Sarp, so that tracks.

What I really mean is as you say, can we employ this on all our existing Sarps of which we have many(do give me a quote if able, I think it's no less than 700) and how much modification it's needed to employ it on all. As we were one of the early adopters of RCWS in numbers, this might be a huge boon. I'm looking for cost effectiveness. Say, forego Ihtar, add an acoustic detector like the sniper detectors we have, tuned for small uavs. Make C-UAS mode slaved to the acoustic detector and one of 5 in every convoy runs in the C-UAS mode. And every convoy has a built in C-UAS system in place on the cheap.

Aselsan already have the SPOT. https://www.aselsan.com/tr/savunma/urun/138/spot

 

[Strong AI]

Let's not forget this solution.
As i understand, it also works against fiber optic controlled drones.
Am i wrong?

ASELSAN exhibited the electronic warfare system EJDERHA at the IDEF 2023 fair.
ASELSAN General Manager Ahmet Akyol shared the latest test images of EJDERHA in his presentation within the scope of SAHA MBA Senior Bureaucrat and Sector Leaders Training.
Developed for the Land Forces Command and security forces, EJDERHA will be able to remotely stop any civil/military vehicle containing electronic circuits with electromagnetic signals.

ASELSAN EJDERHA will make a difference in electronic warfare
EJDERHA, produced by ASELSAN, can emit high-power electromagnetic (EM) radiation for a limited time, via a single pulse or a series of pulses, using a specially designed directional antenna/reflector set. Electromagnetic energy produced by High Power Microwave sources is used to prevent the targeted electronic devices from working, to cause them to malfunction, or to damage them and render them inoperable.
EJDERHA can remotely stop all kinds of civil/military vehicles and air targets containing electronic circuits that can be classified as threats in the tactical field and facility entry-exit areas, with electromagnetic signals. This will deal a blow to the use of improvised explosive devices, drones or electronic systems frequently used by terrorist organizations.
In addition, EJDERHA creates a distinctive solution for convoy protection/deployment activities with new generation technologies. The system, which can be integrated into tactical wheeled armored/tracked vehicles, can be controlled manned and unmanned (via remote command). In this way, a rich usage scenario is presented under field conditions.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1782739080163299434

 

[Radonsider]

Let's not forget this solution.
As i understand, it also works against fiber optic controlled drones.
Am i wrong?

Yes

 

[Strong AI]

Yes

"Electromagnetic energy produced by High Power Microwave sources is used to prevent the targeted electronic devices from working, to cause them to malfunction, or to damage them and render them inoperable."

Now you need to elaborate.
Why can this not work against fiber optic controlled drones?

 

[uçuyorum]

"Electromagnetic energy produced by High Power Microwave sources is used to prevent the targeted electronic devices from working, to cause them to malfunction, or to damage them and render them inoperable."

Now you need to elaborate.
Why can this not work against fiber optic controlled drones?

Those signals cant penetrate those cables

 

[Strong AI]

Those signals cant penetrate those cables

This system is a high-power microwave (HPM). It causes instantaneous failure of the electronic components.
How does the cable help in this situation?

EDIT:

Here is a video. Mr. Akyol basically tells, that the system causes a very high peak voltage in the circuits. Too High voltage in a circuit causes overheating.

 

[uçuyorum]

This system is a high-power microwave (HPM). It causes instantaneous failure of the electronic components.
How does the cable help in this situation?

Well signal receivers can be fried when they are exposed. But if there is no receiver you can shield the components because signal is carried in the cable

 

[Radonsider]

"Electromagnetic energy produced by High Power Microwave sources is used to prevent the targeted electronic devices from working, to cause them to malfunction, or to damage them and render them inoperable."

Now you need to elaborate.
Why can this not work against fiber optic controlled drones?

Ah, I didn't say you are wrong. I meant to say that it would work against FO guided drones too

 

[FaTiHan]

and yes Strong AI, I really want to see a 7.62 mm gatling SARP-L shredding some drones like a micro Phalanx CIWS.

kaan azman bey
akkor altay tank is effective in the last 50 meters.
the 7.62 minigun to be used in the sarp L gun turret is also effective against drones and anti-tank missiles from the last 50+ to 200 meters.
military vehicles and following infantry will have very close layered air defense.

 

[Strong AI]

and yes Strong AI, I really want to see a 7.62 mm gatling SARP-L shredding some drones like a micro Phalanx CIWS.

kaan azman bey
akkor altay tank is effective in the last 50 meters.
the 7.62 minigun to be used in the sarp L gun turret is also effective against drones and anti-tank missiles from the last 50+ to 200 meters.
military vehicles and following infantry will have very close layered air defense.

Did you two consider ammo count and how many ammo you can carry in the vehicle?

 

[somegoodusername]

People are forgetting that FPVs are really fast, very agile, and don’t have to move in predictable patterns when approaching a target. I think a computer-operated, fast-firing shotgun RCWS will be necessary to be implemented on top of high-value vehicles to counter FPVs. Shooting an FPV with a 7.62mm bullet is much harder than hitting it with a shotgun shell. Something like SARP but more specialized optics and sensors for aerial targets, an acoustic sensor too. FPV's won't be limited by human operators 10 years from now, computerization is the only way.

 

[Kaan Azman]

Did you two consider ammo count and how many ammo you can carry in the vehicle?

I am sure more than what Phalanx carries in total.

I recall some vehicles carrying ammo in thousands range for machine guns. If we use SARP ZAFER which allows for reload from inside I think there are interesting possibilities.

 

[Strong AI]

I am sure more than what Phalanx carries in total.

I recall some vehicles carrying ammo in thousands range for machine guns. If we use SARP ZAFER which allows for reload from inside I think there are interesting possibilities.

And now let's think further. In the 40mm ATOM video, they shoot like 5 to 6 rounds, although the drones fly only straight forward.
How many rounds would you need with a minigun to get the same probability of kill?

 

[boredaf]

And now let's think further. In the 40mm ATOM video, they shoot like 5 to 6 rounds, although the drones fly only straight forward.
How many rounds would you need with a minigun to get the same probability of kill?

You can't compare apples to oranges to claim apples are better. Those 5 or 6 grenades are 20% of all grenades in that launcher, although I can't remember MKE version of MK19 has 32 or more grenades. Given the same circumstances, I would happily bet that a 12.7 or 7.62 gatling would shoot that drone down before using same percentage of its ammo, especially if the targeting is being carried out by an algorithm.

FPV drones are fast and manoeuvrable but not to the point of being impervious to bullets. There are multitudes of videos from both sides of war in Ukraine of people shooting them down, both with shotguns and rifles. We would have an advantage over those soldiers though: I would like to think that an auto targeting software would be much more accurate than a soldier trying to shoot one down in panic.

As an example, Stamp-G with 12.7 mm Gatling could carry 500 rounds, give something like a M134 7.62 Gatling and it would carry much more ammo. If we can't create a cloud of shrapnel, we need to keep firing until we hit it.

Nevertheless, I'm still convinced that best case scenario for us is to develop a Mete variant that we can use as point defence in land platforms. It doesn't have to have pinpoint accuracy at 1 km, it just has to be able to detonate at proximity or at a programmed time.

 

[UkroTurk]

Mete has 1m CEP.Unfortunately the long shape and weight of the Missile is vulnerable from side winds . Keeping the missile on the moving targets hard. Moreover Mete has minimum range 360 meter.

So using several 40mm grenade ammunition is more effective while you can not control and set timefuse after launch.