TR Air Defence Programs

[Strong AI]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1950585848636055602

Different (new) video and look at ranges.

 

[TR_123456]

Different (new) video and look at ranges.

View attachment 76781
View attachment 76782

So,this is Siper 1 reaching 150km?

 

[Strong AI]

So,this is Siper 1 reaching 150km?

Afaik the second picture in my post is the range, where they started tracking the target. So imo we can't see in the video, when they did launch the missile. And we don't know in which direction the target flew after the launch.

 

[Yasar_TR]

So,this is Siper 1 reaching 150km?

No!
As far as I know effective range and altitude:

Siper 1 : 100+km range , 20+km altitude
Siper 2 : 150+km range, 30+km altitude
Siper 3 : 180+km range , with ballistic missile interception capability.

 

[Pokemonte13]

I would have said just the radar range but at 150 there are two lines maybe 150 is maximum range with reduced kill probability and 100 km with high probability (definitely not no escape zone)

 

[TheInsider]

So,this is Siper 1 reaching 150km?

The first picture is soft tracking (square around the target), and it is over 150km. Second picture is a hard lock and engagement tracking. Look at the yellow dots around the target. The target is engaged over 125km.

 

[mTT]

Different (new) video and look at ranges.

View attachment 76781
View attachment 76782

The radar detected the helicopter at a range of over 150 km and achieved target lock at a range of over 125 km. This indicates that the helicopters were detected at two different ranges, with a different action taken for each.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I would have said just the radar range but at 150 there are two lines maybe 150 is maximum range with reduced kill probability and 100 km with high probability (definitely not no escape zone)

Siper 1 probably can engage slower, lower altitude targets at longer ranges than 100km.
But it really needs to be tested against a supersonic fighter jet flying at 50000ft performing manoeuvres. Remember US using f4s and Mig29s for that purpose. Same goes for the a2a missiles.
Using high speed but subsonic Simsek target planes at lower altitudes will give you a pro-rata idea of the Siper1’s performance capability. But it can’t replace the real thing. (where air is rarer, the missile will show different kinematics.)

 

[Strong AI]

Siper 1 probably can engage slower, lower altitude targets at longer ranges than 100km.
But it really needs to be tested against a supersonic fighter jet flying at 50000ft performing manoeuvres. Remember US using f4s and Mig29s for that purpose. Same goes for the a2a missiles.
Using high speed but subsonic Simsek target planes at lower altitudes will give you a pro-rata idea of the Siper1’s performance capability. But it can’t replace the real thing. (where air is rarer, the missile will show different kinematics.)

Yeah, i wonder that too. But i think they are actually using this drone (GÖKSUNGUR JEMSAH?) from the article below. What i realized in some test videos is, sometimes they don't show the target at all. Maybe they don't want to go public with it. Afaik there is no information about this drone at TAI website too.

(2022)

Türkiye'nin İlk Süpersonik İHA'sını TUSAŞ Geliştirdi

Türkiye'nin ilk Süpersonik İHA'sı, TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirildi. Milli imkanlarla geliştirilen Süpersonik İHA, önemli görevler üstlenecek.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[UkroTurk]

Could you please enlighten me ? If ramjet air to air missiles superior over solid fueled rocket a2a missiles, why today we don't have ramjet SAMs?

Why did UK and US Navy leave ramjet SAMs?

Today if we converted Göktan into SAM, What would be the pros and cons over rockets?

 

[Strong AI]

Göktan

Do you mean Gökhan? Göktan is the surface launched version of Tolun.

 

[uçuyorum]

Could you please enlighten me ? If ramjet air to air missiles superior over solid fueled rocket a2a missiles, why today we don't have ramjet SAMs?

Why did UK and US Navy leave ramjet SAMs?

Today if we converted Göktan into SAM, What would be the pros and cons over rockets?

Ramjets require an initial speed, thats why it's different for sam vs a2a. SAM are better of solid because ramjet also depends on air and would have difficulty with high altitudes.

 

[UkroTurk]

Do you mean Gökhan? Göktan is the surface launched version of Tolun.

To be honest I am puzzled with new products.

 

[UkroTurk]

Ramjets require an initial speed, thats why it's different for sam vs a2a.

So what? İn the past it wasn't problem. US Navy used them with booster.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yeah, i wonder that too. But i think they are actually using this drone (GÖKSUNGUR JEMSAH?) from the article below. What i realized in some test videos is, sometimes they don't show the target at all. Maybe they don't want to go public with it. Afaik there is no information about this drone at TAI website too.

(2022)

Türkiye'nin İlk Süpersonik İHA'sını TUSAŞ Geliştirdi

Türkiye'nin ilk Süpersonik İHA'sı, TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirildi. Milli imkanlarla geliştirilen Süpersonik İHA, önemli görevler üstlenecek.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I don’t think that drone ever materialised in quantity.
The last news about it was that TUSAŞ was preparing it as a 0.9 Mach drone.
It was first mentioned by Mr Kotil.

“We Plan to Render the Supersonic Target Drone a Product that Flies at Mach 0.9 Later This Year”

During the EFES-2022 Combined, Joint Live-Fire Field Exercise on June 8th, 2022, Defence Turkey Magazine created an opportunity to have an exclusive interview with TUSAŞ Executive Vice President for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles Ömer YILDIZ at the TUSAŞ booth.

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[UkroTurk]

RIM-8 Talos - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sea Dart - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bloodhound (missile) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Strong AI]

I don’t think that drone ever materialised in quantity.
The last news about it was that TUSAŞ was preparing it as a 0.9 Mach drone.
It was first mentioned by Mr Kotil.

“We Plan to Render the Supersonic Target Drone a Product that Flies at Mach 0.9 Later This Year”

During the EFES-2022 Combined, Joint Live-Fire Field Exercise on June 8th, 2022, Defence Turkey Magazine created an opportunity to have an exclusive interview with TUSAŞ Executive Vice President for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles Ömer YILDIZ at the TUSAŞ booth.

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

Could you please enlighten me ? If ramjet air to air missiles superior over solid fueled rocket a2a missiles, why today we don't have ramjet SAMs?

Why did UK and US Navy leave ramjet SAMs?

Today if we converted Göktan into SAM, What would be the pros and cons over rockets?

To say they are superior is a subjective sentence.
To have a throttle control until it hits the target is a big advantage. But ramjets are costly. And they need to reach 1+ Mach before ramjet kicks in. A dual pulse long range a2a missile can do the same deed at half the cost. %ge kill rate may be lower than a ramjet version. But you can fire 2 per target.

Meteor costs best part of 4 million dollars.
Prior to Ukranian war the “sale” price of dual thrust engined, 160km range Amraam aim 120D was 1.8 million a piece to Japan. (To the US airforce it should be half that).
JATM Aim 260 with dual pulse motor and with a prospective range of more than 200km was expected to cost around 2.5 million dollars.
Also having an air breathing engine Ramjet’s flight limit starts around 30-32 Km altitude.

 

[UkroTurk]

To say they are superior is a subjective sentence.
To have a throttle control until it hits the target is a big advantage. But ramjets are costly. And they need to reach 1+ Mach before ramjet kicks in. A dual pulse long range a2a missile can do the same deed at half the cost. %ge kill rate may be lower than a ramjet version. But you can fire 2 per target.

Meteor costs best part of 4 million dollars.
Prior to Ukranian war the “sale” price of dual thrust engined, 160km range Amraam aim 120D was 1.8 million a piece to Japan. (To the US airforce it should be half that).
JATM Aim 260 with dual pulse motor and with a prospective range of more than 200km was expected to cost around 2.5 million dollars.
Also having an air breathing engine it’s flight limit starts around 30-32 Km altitude.

If NAMO has developed such SAM, I am sure ASELSAN has already made it.



The best motor for anti- ballistic SAM ?

renewed interest and investment in high-speed guided-weaponry is going to see the wider adoption of ramjet and scramjet (supersonic-combustion ramjet) engine technology in both offensive and defensive roles.

https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2019/09/ramjet-powered-surface-to-air-missiles-comback/

Ramjet engines differ from solid-propellant motors in that they use atmospheric oxygen rather than including an oxidizer as part of the solid motor. A ramjet-sustainer missile of the same size as a solid-propellant missile will provide greater range and a higher average speed. The mass of the oxidiser, which constitutes most of a solid motor, is replaced with fuel.

What a SAM using ramjet propulsion also offers is the ability be used against comparatively fast high-altitude targets while still under power, at ranges at which solid-propellant missile motors would have burned out, with the missile rapidly losing energy[/URL]

 

[Strong AI]

If NAMO has developed such SAM, I am sure ASELSAN has already made it.



The best motor for anti- ballistic SAM ?

renewed interest and investment in high-speed guided-weaponry is going to see the wider adoption of ramjet and scramjet (supersonic-combustion ramjet) engine technology in both offensive and defensive roles.

https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2019/09/ramjet-powered-surface-to-air-missiles-comback/

Ramjet engines differ from solid-propellant motors in that they use atmospheric oxygen rather than including an oxidizer as part of the solid motor. A ramjet-sustainer missile of the same size as a solid-propellant missile will provide greater range and a higher average speed. The mass of the oxidiser, which constitutes most of a solid motor, is replaced with fuel.

What a SAM using ramjet propulsion also offers is the ability be used against comparatively fast high-altitude targets while still under power, at ranges at which solid-propellant missile motors would have burned out, with the missile rapidly losing energy[/URL]

Looks like they missed their goal. At least i couldn't find more information.

"Nammo is now looking for possible partners who might be interested in using its ramjet motor as the basis for a SAM, or indeed for other missile applications. In the meantime, the company is working toward an initial ground test-launch of the ramjet sustainer by 2022–23."