TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[what]

I dont think that the engine was Otokars project, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Orkunhun]

I dont think that the engine was Otokars project, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I remember that the job of developing an engine was given to TÜMOSAN. TÜMOSAN tried to find foreign engineering and ToT partners from Canada, Austria and UK without any success.

 

[Merzifonlu]

IMO hybrid system has two drawbacks in terms of military applications:

a) It's susceptible to fire and electrical leakage.

b) Being sensitive to EM bombs and graphite powder bombs. (In this manner, the attacks are organized by US against power plants. Graphite dust causes short circuit in transformers and transmission lines.)

For these reasons, I think that the Altay tank will not use battery. I think there will be a simple mechanical transmission with 1 forward and 1 reverse gear in the tank. The remaining accelerations will be given via the batteryless hybrid system.

 

[Orkunhun]

IMO hybrid system has two drawbacks in terms of military applications:

a) It's susceptible to fire and electrical leakage.

b) Being sensitive to EM bombs and graphite powder bombs. (In this manner, the attacks are organized by US against power plants. Graphite dust causes short circuit in transformers and transmission lines.)

For these reasons, I think that the Altay tank will not use battery. I think there will be a simple mechanical transmission with 1 forward and 1 reverse gear in the tank. The remaining accelerations will be given via the batteryless hybrid system.

With all due respect, which modern system is exempt electronic circuits, transformers and transmission lines?
Necessary precaution by EMP protection measures might solve such issues.

 

[Zafer]

T

Of course, but why not invest MORE in newer technologies in which we may have the chance not only to reach but even to lead the way on equal foot than trying to reach their level in already mature old technology.

Time
We can not jump to the end state where everything is the latest technology, it will take a lot of time. We need intermediate results where we can make use of what technology we already have and also to sell to others.

 

[Merzifonlu]

With due respect, which modern system is exempt electronic circuits, transformers and transmission lines?
Necessary precaution by EMP protection measures might solve such issues.

You are right.

However, when considered together with all other factors it will not be as easy as it seems in tanks. It is not impossible but quite difficult.

 

[Yasar_TR]

IMO hybrid system has two drawbacks in terms of military applications:

a) It's susceptible to fire and electrical leakage.

b) Being sensitive to EM bombs and graphite powder bombs. (In this manner, the attacks are organized by US against power plants. Graphite dust causes short circuit in transformers and transmission lines.)

For these reasons, I think that the Altay tank will not use battery. I think there will be a simple mechanical transmission with 1 forward and 1 reverse gear in the tank. The remaining accelerations will be given via the batteryless hybrid system.

Good point! But a tank like Altay that is designed against radioactivity leakage and can go under water, should be airtight enough not to allow graphite dust to come in.
With a battery-less system you are describing, you are introducing a transmission in to the equation. This will will defeat the whole object.
A system like the one used in HSL700 locomotive, is ideal for a tank. Any shortcomings, such as keeping batteries safe from excessive heat and bomb blasts can be accommodated if designers do their job right. ( remember this tank has air-con as well.) If the Japanese can keep Shoryu batteries dry under water, I don’t see why it can’t be done for a tank.
With a M113 hybrid prototype I think we are doing a trial run for this type of traction in a smaller scale.
If Batu is used as the Diesel engine the total power output of the system would exceed 2400 HP.

 

[Timur]

Good point! But a tank like Altay that is designed against radioactivity leakage and can go under water, should be airtight enough not to allow graphite dust to come in.
With a battery-less system you are describing, you are introducing a transmission in to the equation. This will will defeat the whole object.
A system like the one used in HSL700 locomotive, is ideal for a tank. Any shortcomings, such as keeping batteries safe from excessive heat and bomb blasts can be accommodated if designers do their job right. ( remember this tank has air-con as well.) If the Japanese can keep Shoryu batteries dry under water, I don’t see why it can’t be done for a tank.
With a M113 hybrid prototype I think we are doing a trial run for this type of traction in a smaller scale.
If Batu is used as the Diesel engine the total power output of the system would exceed 2400 HP.

lets see I am eager to see the next better in all aspects battery generations and hydrogen technologies.. systems that will rise with that..

still I am not very hopefull looking at the next years due to some disadvanteges and different drive profile and circumstances and security standards of a tank wich is different compared to commercial products of todays technology wich have not much problems with the current technology..

my opinion (even more than 6/8 years earlier I hoped for it) lets say hope and conviction was for the hydrogen technology and still I think this is one of the best ways (or good alternative) for cars, bus,tir, air vehicles and tanks

 

[neosinan]

I don't wanna point out the obvious But Turkey can't choose Hybrid or EV as MBT for its Armed forces. EV or Hybrid tanks are NOT Battle Proven. This would not be a problem If Turkey was in the Middle of Europe or Some Island nation But We are in Middle East. Sure We should developed these systems and produce 1 or 2 tank battalion as Trial for the Long Run. But Not as Main battle tank of Turkish armed forces.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I don't wanna point out the obvious But Turkey can't choose Hybrid or EV as MBT for its Armed forces. EV or Hybrid tanks are NOT Battle Proven. This would not be a problem If Turkey was in the Middle of Europe or Some Island nation But We are in Middle East. Sure We should developed these systems and produce 1 or 2 tank battalion as Trial for the Long Run. But Not as Main battle tank of Turkish armed forces.

The only thing obvious is the fact that there are people in the army that think that what they are used to is the best. Every new tech will bring with itself many criticisms.
Bayraktar TB2 is a good example.
You outright say “Turkey cannot chose” without giving any credible reason as to why!
Bora & Atmaca missiles was not battle proven, Anka and TB2 were not battle proven , TRG series of artillery rockets were not battle proven when they were all accepted by the TSK.
No new system can be integrated into use by Turkish Army unless it has gone through extensive and rigorous tests. Just remember the tests Altay prototype tank had to go through, Same will happen with this. Qualification period. Integration period. Then acceptance tests. It will take at least a year.
Once completed the critics should have nothing negative to say about it.

 

[neosinan]

The only thing obvious is the fact that there are people in the army that think that what they are used to is the best. Every new tech will bring with itself many criticisms.
Bayraktar TB2 is a good example.
You outright say “Turkey cannot chose” without giving any credible reason as to why!
Bora & Atmaca missiles was not battle proven, Anka and TB2 were not battle proven , TRG series of artillery rockets were not battle proven when they were all accepted by the TSK.
No new system can be integrated into use by Turkish Army unless it has gone through extensive and rigorous tests. Just remember the tests Altay prototype tank had to go through, Same will happen with this. Qualification period. Integration period. Then acceptance tests. It will take at least a year.
Once completed the critics should have nothing negative to say about it.

UAVs and Balistic missiles systems are not New Systems, The systems You mentioned are new for us But not for the US or Many other Country. Even Electric vehilces as Commircial products are not proven systems, They account for less than 1%. There is no military system in service Right Now. One of These systems might be the future. But We cant decide here on the this forum, If EV, Hybrid or Hybrid Vehicles is the one to go. Investing EV or Hyrbrid vehicle as Back bone of Turkish Armed forces is a Luxury and a Risk that We dont have and Thankfully The Peoples with Responsiablties are not Playing Gamble with the Future our country.

 

[Yasar_TR]

UAVs and Balistic missiles systems are not New Systems, The systems You mentioned are new for us But not for the US or Many other Country. Even Electric vehilces as Commircial products are not proven systems, They account for less than 1%. There is no military system in service Right Now. One of These systems might be the future. But We cant decide here on the this forum, If EV, Hybrid or Hybrid Vehicles is the one to go. Investing EV or Hyrbrid vehicle as Back bone of Turkish Armed forces is a Luxury and a Risk that We dont have and Thankfully The Peoples with Responsiablties are not Playing Gamble with the Future our country.

UAV‘s and missiles were new to us when we started putting them in our inventory.
You are correct that We are not the ones who decide. But we are here to make a point. I respect your point even if I do not agree with it. So let us say we agree to disagree!

 

[Orkunhun]

UAVs and Balistic missiles systems are not New Systems, The systems You mentioned are new for us But not for the US or Many other Country. Even Electric vehilces as Commircial products are not proven systems, They account for less than 1%. There is no military system in service Right Now. One of These systems might be the future. But We cant decide here on the this forum, If EV, Hybrid or Hybrid Vehicles is the one to go. Investing EV or Hyrbrid vehicle as Back bone of Turkish Armed forces is a Luxury and a Risk that We dont have and Thankfully The Peoples with Responsiablties are not Playing Gamble with the Future our country.

I am very well aware that neither we are the ones who are going to decide, nor that this is the place for such a decision.

Said that, I truely believe that if they let one team to work on a hybrid ALTAY it will be ready to be compared on the test field with one of the already build prototypes with MTU engine and ZF transmission before the tank with locally produced 1500HP+ engine and transmission.

 

[Merzifonlu]

With a battery-less system you are describing, you are introducing a transmission in to the equation. This will will defeat the whole object.

Not exactly. The mechanical transmission with 1 forward and 1 reverse gear is both space-saving and uncomplicated. I think it would be an affordable price to avoid battery risk. Of course, if there is a new technology battery with low fire risk, then a full hybrid system is very suitable.

 

[AzeriTank]

By no means it is impossible to design and produce 1500-1800HP range tank engine + differential compact and reliable enough to compare with German MTU diesel engine and ZF transmission of today.

The biggest dilemma is necessary money and time.

Even if we have enough money, the question remains if we have enough time to reach that level of accumulated knowledge of 120 years in order to fulfill the requirements of the ALTAY project before the ALTAY concept itself becomes obsolete.

Suppose that we produce BATU and suitable transmission, what will be the cost? Are we going to be able to compete in the international market to sell our products in order to compensate the cost?

Till we produce such a duo with described specifications the technology will evolve in all fields, internal combustion, battery technology, condensator technology, electric motor technology, hydrogen technology and also material technology which may allow to produce lighter armor plates. No one will say "let us wait for Turks to develope their diesel engine and transmission".

Therefore, I think it will be wiser to invest more into newer technologies in which we might have more chance to compete. One good example is our UAV technology. While we are now competitive in this field in no means we have any competitiveness in the field of manned aircrafts.

I wish we can produce an unmanned hybrid tank with less weight and armour but equal fire power and agility before anyone else.

its not just a Tank engine. the same diesel engine, bigger version you use in Submarines and Warships... or you are able to use in transportation ships and make billions out of this business every single year... Turkey invest in Hydrogen tech too, you need to have all of them...

 

[MASA]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352131309607350274

 

[Zafer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352131309607350274

Oh no, please no. What if it comes with many strings attached and we can only use them when playing house.

 

[Combat-Master]

It meams either that you are near the solution domesticaly solved or that someome is placing disinformation deliberately about current status of it, dont see other logic in these negotiation, if the news are true

Likely BS. For one, even if they allow powerpack to be sold - there's no trust that they would allow Turkey to export the engine with the platform. Take forinstance, S.Korea - why are they developing an engine for their Tank, they don't have the same issues with Germany as Turkey does.. but yet, germany restricts their exports too.. Full steam ahead for the indigneous engine, and if Germany wants to sell a few of their engines great - we'll have some Altays before 2025..

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thermally Modulated Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries
This is a new battery technology being developed. 10 minute charge, no adverse effects of li-ion or li-hydride or li-polymer batteries. Much cheaper longer life (expected to last 2 million miles). It does not catch fire. And most importantly much lighter. Still in development stage. But a solution to current shortcomings of rechargeable batteries.

Thermally modulated lithium iron phosphate batteries for mass-market electric vehicles - Nature Energy

Ternary layered oxides dominate the current automobile batteries but suffer from material scarcity and operational safety. Here the authors report that, when operating at around 60 °C, a low-cost lithium iron phosphate-based battery exhibits ultra-safe, fast rechargeable and long-lasting properties.

www.nature.com

Then there is Tesla’s 4680 Battery. This is a revolution in it self.

Everything You Need To Know About Tesla's New 4680 Battery Cell - CleanTechnica

Tesla didn't hold back at Battery Day, announcing a new tabless 4680 cell form factor, among many other things.

cleantechnica.com

So the Technology is there to use. It is up to us if we want to get on the band wagon or not!
We should definitely try a hybrid electrodiesel power train for our tanks at this time.
Tanks are indispensable war machines of the battlefields. They will evolve and be there for quite a few decades yet. Especially with the newer and more effective active/passive protection systems. Their drivetrain is going to evolve in to first dieselelectric hybrid power; Then Hydrogen fuel cell electric power. We have to start using these new technologies.

 

[Orkunhun]

its not just a Tank engine. the same diesel engine, bigger version you use in Submarines and Warships... or you are able to use in transportation ships and make billions out of this business every single year... Turkey invest in Hydrogen tech too, you need to have all of them...

Definetely. We need them all.

First we have to make a wise plan and define and decide our priorities.
To be able to produce them indigenously we need good and enough scientists, metalurgists, engineers and well educated technicians. This is the foremost prerequisite. It takes quite a long time to create this human capacity. Therefore we should create necessary environment and incentives for our already drained brains and talents to either come back or to work for us from abroad by providing necessary know how.

As we are now discussing under the title of ALTAY & Turkish Main Battle Tanks I would like to focus myself to its necessary powering. It must be powerful, reliable and compact. Reliability and compactness are the main bottlenecks we are confronting than being powerful. This dilemma is also valid for many developed countries like USA, France, UK, Italy, Russia, South Korea and others. Engines which are not intended to be compact or lightweight, like the ones for ships or locomotives are less difficult to build if we create the ability of casting big alloy moulds.

In the science of engineering it is very important to end up with products up to requests of the user which will satisfy its needs. For that it is very important to create a product which answers the technical creteria as well as the creteria of productability. End product must be suitable for serial production for a realistic price. Please do not mix this with the development costs which will be very high and not avoidable if we want to have this ability.

And then of course comes the time frame for the project.

Specially for the tank I think using new technologies like diesel-electric hybride or for time being in lesser degree using hydrogencells might give us advantages that we may more likely be able to produce indegeniously and without the risk of being embargoed on critial parts.