India AMCA Program

[Nilgiri]

So RIP to the DSI then.

Also that mid fuselage reminds me of Tejas. It's highly unlikely that we are seeing parts of AMCA here...

Yeah I agree, it looks more like a Tejas section. Channels are pretty close to each other.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Nilgiri]

DRDO approaches CCS for AMCA project approval

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has asked the DRDO to focus on core competence, avoid delays and cost overruns.

www.hindustantimes.com

The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has approached the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, for approval of twin-engine advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) after the design of the fifth-generation stealth fighter has been frozen by the Aeronautical Development Authority. The first prototype of GE-414 powered AMCA is expected to roll out by 2026.

The DRDO’s decision to approach the CCS for funding comes at a time when PM Modi has asked the organization to focus on its core competence and avoid time-delays and cost-overruns. The LCA Tejas Mark II with GE-414 engine is expected to roll out next year after completion of air intake test certification in France in May-June this year. Since the air intake of Mark II is similar to Mark I, the DRDO is confident about bagging the certification and rolling out the first prototype by next year.

It is understood that the government has asked the DRDO to stick to project timelines and avoid delays in the name of first time development. While the India-US talks are going on for 100 per cent transfer of technology production of GE-414 engines in India, the DRDO has decided to power both the Mark II and AMCA with the same engine.

While the DRDO maintains that Tejas Mark I has a range of 3000 km with GE-404 engine, the small fighter made is international debut in Abu Dhabi airbase in February and was conspicuous by its absence in bilateral exercises in UK and Australia. “The aircraft is capable and can make long range journeys through refueling. But the decision on which aircraft to send for international exercises lies with the Indian Air Force,” said a DRDO senior official.

While the Narendra Modi government is committed to the Tejas program, it also wants to hold DRDO accountable for the fighter development as time is running out for the Indian Air Force with the rise of the Chinese air force and its armed drones. The DRDO must deliver on its timelines or else the IAF will be running short of squadrons in the next decade and force the government of the day to do emergency acquisitions for its air capabilities.

Taking this in account, the Modi government is also pursuing engine design, development, and joint production with France and also the possibility of manufacturing Rafale fighters in India for export to third countries. The US has also offered to shift its F-18 production line to India with an offer to acquire F-15 EX fighters.

Given the new Russia-China equation and changing geo-politics over Ukraine and Taiwan, India cannot afford to do business as usual as national institutions must work in synergy towards national interest and not in self-preservation.

 

[Windchime]

View attachment 54601

I've seen a similar presentation image for MWF, and it seemed like major avionics components are shared between the two aircraft. Is that correct? If that's the case I also think TEDBF will also use same avionics as well.

 

[Windchime]

DRDO approaches CCS for AMCA project approval

Prime Minister Narendra Modi has asked the DRDO to focus on core competence, avoid delays and cost overruns.

www.hindustantimes.com

The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has approached the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, for approval of twin-engine advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) after the design of the fifth-generation stealth fighter has been frozen by the Aeronautical Development Authority. The first prototype of GE-414 powered AMCA is expected to roll out by 2026.

The DRDO’s decision to approach the CCS for funding comes at a time when PM Modi has asked the organization to focus on its core competence and avoid time-delays and cost-overruns. The LCA Tejas Mark II with GE-414 engine is expected to roll out next year after completion of air intake test certification in France in May-June this year. Since the air intake of Mark II is similar to Mark I, the DRDO is confident about bagging the certification and rolling out the first prototype by next year.

It is understood that the government has asked the DRDO to stick to project timelines and avoid delays in the name of first time development. While the India-US talks are going on for 100 per cent transfer of technology production of GE-414 engines in India, the DRDO has decided to power both the Mark II and AMCA with the same engine.

While the DRDO maintains that Tejas Mark I has a range of 3000 km with GE-404 engine, the small fighter made is international debut in Abu Dhabi airbase in February and was conspicuous by its absence in bilateral exercises in UK and Australia. “The aircraft is capable and can make long range journeys through refueling. But the decision on which aircraft to send for international exercises lies with the Indian Air Force,” said a DRDO senior official.

While the Narendra Modi government is committed to the Tejas program, it also wants to hold DRDO accountable for the fighter development as time is running out for the Indian Air Force with the rise of the Chinese air force and its armed drones. The DRDO must deliver on its timelines or else the IAF will be running short of squadrons in the next decade and force the government of the day to do emergency acquisitions for its air capabilities.

Taking this in account, the Modi government is also pursuing engine design, development, and joint production with France and also the possibility of manufacturing Rafale fighters in India for export to third countries. The US has also offered to shift its F-18 production line to India with an offer to acquire F-15 EX fighters.

Given the new Russia-China equation and changing geo-politics over Ukraine and Taiwan, India cannot afford to do business as usual as national institutions must work in synergy towards national interest and not in self-preservation.

Reading this article, I've got a question. It's mentioned that 2026 will be the roll-out schedule, though I wonder, what happened with the plan to build the NGTD? IIRC, wasn't it planned to build 2 NGTD aircrafts this year and by 2024? Also, is the bid for the private sector partnership still ongoing? Last time I've checked, which was a few years back, L&T was mentioned as one of the favored bidders. Are they still pursuing the idea of HAL-private sector partnership or did they scrap it?

 

[Nilgiri]

Reading this article, I've got a question. It's mentioned that 2026 will be the roll-out schedule, though I wonder, what happened with the plan to build the NGTD? IIRC, wasn't it planned to build 2 NGTD aircrafts this year and by 2024? Also, is the bid for the private sector partnership still ongoing? Last time I've checked, which was a few years back, L&T was mentioned as one of the favored bidders. Are they still pursuing the idea of HAL-private sector partnership or did they scrap it?

That timeline was mentioned by some defence circles/enthusiasts (some were also skeptical)....but I felt it was always a bit pie in the sky since I didn't hear anything officially to back it all up....and considering how late India really started the AMCA project to begin with....and the scale of what needed development in this 5th gen arena.

Anyway this is what we have to go with now @Gessler :

India gearing up for ambitious fifth-generation stealth fighter project | India News - Times of India

India News: India is now finally moving ahead with its long-pending project to develop a fifth-generation stealth fighter, in a step that also effectively torpedo

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

NEW DELHI: India is now finally moving ahead with its long-pending project to develop a fifth-generation stealth fighter, in a step that also effectively torpedoes feverish speculation that New Delhi may be interested in the F-35A jets showcased by the US at Aero-India in Bengaluru in February.

The full-scale engineering development case for the indigenous twin-engine advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), at a cost of around Rs 15,000 crore, will 'soon' be sent to the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) for the final approval, sources told TOI on Thursday.
"Extensive inter-ministerial consultations on cost, design and level of indigenous content are virtually complete now. The DRDO case for the AMCA will soon be finalized for the CCS," a source said.

The ambitious AMCA project will involve development of five prototypes, one structural test specimen, extensive flight testing and certification for the eventual 25-tonne swing-role fighter.

As per the projected timelines, the first AMCA prototype will roll out four years after the CCS sanction, with the production to begin another six years after that. In effect, the IAF will begin inducting the AMCA from only around 2035 onwards.

The only operational 5th generation jets in the world currently are the American F/A-22 Raptors and F-35 Lightning-II Joint Strike Fighters, with the Chinese Chengdu J-20 and Russian Sukhoi-57 also somewhat there. "The US bringing two F-35s for the Aero-India was just strategic posturing and a sales pitch. We are pursuing our own AMCA programme," the source said.

The CCS in August last year had cleared the development of the indigenous Tejas Mark-2 fighter at an overall cost of over Rs 9,000 crore, which TOI had then reported would be followed by the AMCA project.

The 36 Rafales inducted by IAF under the Rs 59,000 crore deal inked with France in September 2016 and the planned Tejas Mark-2 are 4.5 generation fighters. The AMCA, in turn, will be a truly 5th generation fighter with advanced stealth features and the capability to super-cruise as well as data fusion and multi-sensor integration with AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars.

The IAF currently plans seven squadrons (126 jets) of the AMCA. With India failing to develop its own jet engine, the first two AMCA squadrons will be powered by the American GE-414 engines in the 98 Kilonewton thrust class, like the Tejas Mark-2 jets. The next five squadrons are planned to be equipped with a more powerful 110 Kilonewton engine to be developed with foreign collaboration.

The IAF is currently grappling with just 31 fighter squadrons when at least 42 are required to tackle China and Pakistan. The IAF induction plan includes 83 Tejas Mark-1A, 108 Tejas Mark-2, 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (to be manufactured in India with foreign collaboration) and finally 126 AMCA.

But the going has been excruciatingly slow. The 73 Tejas Mark-1A fighters (with GE-404 engines) and 10 trainers have to be delivered by Hindustan Aeronautics in the February 2024-February 2028 timeframe as per the Rs 46,898 crore contract inked in February 2021.

"But the first Tejas Mark-1A will probably come towards end-2024. First, every small equipment change requires extensive flight testing and certification. Moreover, HAL has to majorly upgrade its annual production capability. Tejas Mark-2, of course, is still in the design and development phase," another source said.

 

[Zapper]

The IAF is currently grappling with just 31 fighter squadrons when at least 42 are required to tackle China and Pakistan. The IAF induction plan includes 83 Tejas Mark-1A, 108 Tejas Mark-2, 114 multi-role fighter aircraft (to be manufactured in India with foreign collaboration) and finally 126 AMCA.

If the induction of AMCA is being pushed to mid-2030s, the contract for MRFA with Rafale being the most feasible option should've been signed yesterday.

Since we will be retiring more squadrons during this timeframe, Tejas Mk-2's numbers should at least be doubled

 

[Windchime]

The full-scale engineering development case for the indigenous twin-engine advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), at a cost of around Rs 15,000 crore, will 'soon' be sent to the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) for the final approval, sources told TOI on Thursday.

So that will mean that they'll skip the technology demonstration phase, including the technology demonstrator. I'd say its a reasonable choice, given project schedules. Better accelerate the actual program if they could.

 

[Baryshx]

Rolls Royce makes big offer for India’s fighter aircraft engine program

As Rolls-Royce does not want other jet manufacturers such as Avio, Industria de Turbo Propulsores (ITP), and MTU Aero Engines to participate in the programme, a fresh design proposal was made to India

The second proposal from BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce is for India to join the Global Combat Air Project, where it intends to work with Italy and Japan to produce a 6th generation fighter jet.

Rolls Royce makes big offer for India’s fighter aircraft engine program

As Rolls-Royce does not want other jet manufacturers such as Avio, Industria de Turbo Propulsores (ITP), and MTU Aero Engines to participate in the programme, a fresh design proposal was made to India

www.firstpost.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1645843367010369549

 

[Zapper]

The second proposal from BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce is for India to join the Global Combat Air Project, where it intends to work with Italy and Japan to produce a 6th generation fighter jet.

I don't think India would want to collaborate with other countries in fighter jet development given the bitter experience we had with FGFA (Su-57) and I'm sure these western firms will be reluctant to share critical tech or source codes. Not to mention, we don't really have a great defence relationship with Italy given some of their firms are facing corruption charges and were blacklisted

Best bet is to collaborate on engine tech and go ahead full speed with our AMCA and 6th gen iterations down the lane

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1649721486385766401

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Yasar_TR]

Can develop new High Thrust engine on our own but might take 20 years: DRDO Chairman – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

According to this news piece the DRDO Chairman doesn’t have much confidence in Indian engineering prowess regarding the development of a high thrust military jet engine.
Kaveri is giving positive results in various tests. But a higher thrust version is seen to be too far ahead according to top brass responsible.
A country like India where technical know how in many fields is abound, I find it inexplicable that their technological capability of producing a high thrust military jet engine is not readily available. Especially when they have been developing an engine like Kaveri all along. I can understand and fully agree with the notion of forming a JV or technical alliance with a company like RR or Safran to save on time. But 20 years?
@Nilgiri your views will be appreciated.

 

[Nilgiri]

Can develop new High Thrust engine on our own but might take 20 years: DRDO Chairman – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

According to this news piece the DRDO Chairman doesn’t have much confidence in Indian engineering prowess regarding the development of a high thrust military jet engine.
Kaveri is giving positive results in various tests. But a higher thrust version is seen to be too far ahead according to top brass responsible.
A country like India where technical know how in many fields is abound, I find it inexplicable that their technological capability of producing a high thrust military jet engine is not readily available. Especially when they have been developing an engine like Kaveri all along. I can understand and fully agree with the notion of forming a JV or technical alliance with a company like RR or Safran to save on time. But 20 years?
@Nilgiri your views will be appreciated.

I watched the interview, given the context its unclear how much of the time he mentions overlaps with what has already been done with the Kaveri...i.e not clear what the rough starting year is for the figure. So adding 15 and 20 years to current year (2023) doesn't seem likely.

Also it depends on what a final engine means here, as extra time will be taken to truly mass produce optimally with larger industry (to achieve economy of scale approaching say the US and West) with future platforms in mind.... compared to limited series "in house" at say just HAL. That would involve large investments and bringing up lot of companies up to speed, like say has been done more intensely in the last 2 decades w.r.t ISRO--->conglomerates + MSME (to achieve more robust scale and lower costs) compared to say how it did everything inhouse in the 80s/90s.

There has also been a strategic decision made to cooperate with both the Americans and French (in separate ways) to accelerate how the ToT applies to something fully Indian in the end (i.e how the Kaveri evolves)....so worst case numbers are sometimes given to add backing to the current decision tree compared to the old one that was in play from about 1998 (Indian nuclear tests) to quite recently still. This old decision tree has large inertia where it was fully reliant on low funded + slow paced domestic program and what could be learned from the Russian engines and some French ones which were operated and maintained in the IAF....so again adds to the worst case scenario projection to make the current options that have opened up look much more justified etc.

 

[Rodeo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1728717932811964800

What's the largest forging press in India? Has there been any consideration of 3D printing the bulkheads? TAI is using Sciaky Electron Beam printers to make the titanium bulkheads. It should be sufficient to reach the required mechanical specs for the material.

Sciaky, Inc. to Deliver World's Largest Metal Electron Beam DED 3D Printer, a Customized EBAM® 300 Series Additive Manufacturing System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)

/PRNewswire/ -- Sciaky, Inc., a subsidiary of Phillips Service Industries, Inc. (PSI) and leading supplier of industrial metal 3D printing solutions, announced...

www.prnewswire.com

@Nilgiri

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1728717932811964800

What's the largest forging press in India? Has there been any consideration of 3D printing the bulkheads? TAI is using Sciaky Electron Beam printers to make the titanium bulkheads. It should be sufficient to reach the required mechanical specs for the material.

Sciaky, Inc. to Deliver World's Largest Metal Electron Beam DED 3D Printer, a Customized EBAM® 300 Series Additive Manufacturing System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)

/PRNewswire/ -- Sciaky, Inc., a subsidiary of Phillips Service Industries, Inc. (PSI) and leading supplier of industrial metal 3D printing solutions, announced...

www.prnewswire.com

@Nilgiri

I dont know the answers here. Maybe @Gessler has some insight. I have bookmarked the original YT video for later measured perusal and tell you if I gleam anything useful from it.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

 

[Spitfire9]

I am interested to see what happens with the 2 different engine deals lined up for use in AMCA Mk1 and Mk2.

The GE F414 deal was one where it was reported that GOI would not release funds awarded to Tejas Mk2 project unless India secured a deal witth100% TOT for its production in India. I did read through the GE press release issued while Modi was in the US. I saw no mention of technology being transferred. I hope that the retention of funds for Tejas Mk2 development by GOI (resulting in more delay for the programme) does not also apply to AMCA.

Regarding the SAFRAN engine co-development deal, I wonder if GOI will be prepared to accept the price (lots of billions of dollars, I think).

 

[Spitfire9]

I wonder, is it practical for security reasons to depend on AMCA to provide India with a 5G capability? China already has and continues to build large numbers of J-20, I gather. Tensions between China and a number of countries are rising. AMCA is treading water. If it got CCS approval right now, I would say the earliest rollout date would be 2027. Earliest first flight 2028. Earliest conclusion of testing and acceptance 2031. Earliest production aircraft completed 2034. Earliest EIS 2035. More likely 2037-2040 (I have not allowed for any bureaucratic delays in my time line).

Clearly IAF will not receive a 5G aircraft for well over 10 years going down the AMCA-only route. An emergency procurement of F-35 or Su-57 or otherwise KF-21 is needed, isn't it? Or even Su-75? Something needs to turn up in IAF's inventory a long time before AMCA does (if it ever does).

 

[KamBhakth]

I am interested to see what happens with the 2 different engine deals lined up for use in AMCA Mk1 and Mk2.

The GE F414 deal was one where it was reported that GOI would not release funds awarded to Tejas Mk2 project unless India secured a deal witth100% TOT for its production in India. I did read through the GE press release issued while Modi was in the US. I saw no mention of technology being transferred. I hope that the retention of funds for Tejas Mk2 development by GOI (resulting in more delay for the programme) does not also apply to AMCA.

Regarding the SAFRAN engine co-development deal, I wonder if GOI will be prepared to accept the price (lots of billions of dollars, I think).

Why GE’s jet engine for India’s Tejas is a big deal

GE's F414 military aircraft engine powers state-of-the-art fighters like the Boeing Super Hornet and Saab Gripen. The pact to build them in India for the LCA Tejas Mk2 marks a key milestone in India-US ties, and the final burial of the 'technology denial regime'.

indianexpress.com

There will not be 100% TOT. No one will give that for aircraft engine. Both MK2 and AMCA are being designed around the F414 so we will try to get maximum possible technology but we will have to finally accept whatever amount of technology is available for transfer.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1748722640804614384