India AMCA Program

Sai

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AMCA's proposed empty weight is higher than all other 5th generation fighters, even though it is a medium fighter. Why is that?
 

Nilgiri

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AMCA's proposed empty weight is higher than all other 5th generation fighters, even though it is a medium fighter. Why is that?

Most sources give it projected around ~ 12 tons.

How is that higher than all other 5th gen?

F-35A empty weight is around 13 tons and F-22 is around 20 tons.
 

Sai

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Most sources give it projected around ~ 12 tons.

How is that higher than all other 5th gen?

F-35A empty weight is around 13 tons and F-22 is around 20 tons.
Is this data wrong? Please scroll down to the bottom and look at the structural information. Also, the operational range bothers me. If it's wrong, can you please share where I can get reliable information?

EDIT: Sorry, I looked into Wiki. The given information on the above site was completely wrong.
 
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Nilgiri

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Is this data wrong? Please scroll down to the bottom and look at the structural information. Also, the operational range bothers me. If it's wrong, can you please share where I can get reliable information?

EDIT: Sorry, I looked into Wiki. The given information on the above site was completely wrong.

Eveerywhere you look, the parameters for AMCA are provisional.

Though with the overall volumetric size being suggested and the powerplant being assumed to be GE-414 x2....we can assume it will resemble the F-35A within a certain +/- range.

Slightly kinematically worse (w.r.t max speed, max range etc, if weight allocated to larger lift surfaces with same overall T/W) given the 2 engines weigh ~2.2 tons compared to the one engine F-35 has that is ~1.7 tons.....with thrust output being roughly the same.
 

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For decades fighter production in India has been allocated exclusively to GOI-owned HAL, depriving other Indian aerospace companies of any experience. GOI belatedly decided to involve the private sector, inviting expressions of interest in producing AMCA through the offices of a GOI/privately owned company termed a 'Special Purpose Vehicle'. No private company has expressed any interest in this proposition.

I wonder if the way to put the private sector in a position where involvement in fighter production becomes attractive is to sell part of HAL to the private sector. With a period of transition one of the HAL Tejas Mk1A assembly line operations could be used to build experience.

As things stand there will be no AMCA production unless HAL undertakes it. To stand any chance of de-monopolising fighter production in India steps need to be taken. Is GOI big enough to take the challenge on?
 

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CCS gave clearance to formally begin development & construction of 5 prototypes in a program worth $1.8 billion


@Nilgiri

GID1JEDXYAAl5ZE.jpeg
 

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Couldn't they make AMCA a bit bigger, with F414 engines can it be truly an air superiority replacement for SU-30MKI? It seems more like J-35 and future KF-21. Also, will two F414 be able to meet the power demands for next gen sensors and avionics?
 

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Couldn't they make AMCA a bit bigger, with F414 engines can it be truly an air superiority replacement for SU-30MKI? It seems more like J-35 and future KF-21. Also, will two F414 be able to meet the power demands for next gen sensors and avionics?

It's not meant to be an air-superiority fighter, it's a multi/swing-role fighter. It will only replace likes of Mirage-2000 & MiG-29. F414 is only an interim option, but with the new engine, it should be capable of supercruising + increased electrical output.

The replacement of MKI would have to be something along the likes of the GCAP/FCAS.

is there a planned roll-out date?

First prototype rollout in 2026 as per reports. We'll see.

In the meantime I hope to see the A319 FTB configured with AMCA's sensor payloads.
 

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It's not meant to be an air-superiority fighter, it's a multi/swing-role fighter. It will only replace likes of Mirage-2000 & MiG-29. F414 is only an interim option, but with the new engine, it should be capable of supercruising + increased electrical output.

The replacement of MKI would have to be something along the likes of the GCAP/FCAS.



First prototype rollout in 2026 as per reports. We'll see.

In the meantime I hope to see the A319 FTB configured with AMCA's sensor payloads.
Good luck with AMCA. Are there any up to date (and official) design renderings of the aircraft out there?
 

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capable of supercruising
Isn't the requirement for supercruise the reason for this who delay in finalizing the config? I thought they gave up on it at least for Mk-1
 

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Good luck with AMCA. Are there any up to date (and official) design renderings of the aircraft out there?

These are the latest official ones that I'm aware of, all fan-made CGIs are based on these:

E8G65EsVEAEyCvm.jpg


E2oUCu-WQAAxkDj.jpg

^^ annotations are fan-made, superimposed on official renders

AMCA.JPG


FYrdhGEaMAAPuF4.jpg


photo_2023-02-05_11-29-48.jpg


Isn't the requirement for supercruise the reason for this who delay in finalizing the config? I thought they gave up on it at least for Mk-1

Supercruise would only be possible with the new engine, but there's no need to delay the whole program just to wait on the engine so it was broken off into Mk-1 and Mk-2 developments. This way, along with the new engine we may also incorporate other developments into Mk-2 that either were not ready in time for Mk-1 or things that the Mk-1's engines did not have the electrical output to support.

Like more advanced avionics.

But we have to wait & see - as of now, other than the next-gen engine, we don't really know what else Mk-2 will have that Mk-1 doesn't.
 

Nilgiri

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Supercruise would only be possible with the new engine,

I was looking at some numbers a bit earlier:

F-22, 2xF-119 = 232kN

Using gross weight (roughly halfway between empty and MTOW) of 29.4 tons and dry thrust only
gives T/W of 232/(29.4x9.81) = 0.8

Equiv numbers for supercruise capable a/c:
Rafale ~ 0.68
EF ~ 0.76
Su-57 ~0.72
Gripen E/F ~ 0.82

When this is done for F-35A (not capable of sustained supercruise with most combat loads), the T/W number is ~0.60

Using Gripen x2 essentially (i.e T/W of 0.82 and keeping engine 414 the same too), we get weight supported as ~ 24 tons

So if combat loads for AMCA are well within this and parasitic drag (of 5th gen harsher aerodynamics compared to 4th gen) is mitigated sufficiently, then it should be able to supercruise in a number of commensurate configurations barring some potentially above this weight (and drag of external payloads in MTOW configurations).

We will have to see but nothing stopping a 2xF414 platform (w.r.t only their dry thrust) from supercruise if you keep the payload (T/W) and L/D characteristics within desired ranges for it.

Or has a more robust analysis of this been done somewhere?
 

Windchime

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Wow, this took sooo long.

I've heard that the reason, the grant for the ccs approval taking this long was down to the fact that the HAL-private entity partnership that the Indian government was looking for was much harder to implement in practice. What's more, I've heard that they are not pursuing public-private partnership for the AMCA program anymore. How true are these?
 

Zapper

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Wow, this took sooo long.

I've heard that the reason, the grant for the ccs approval taking this long was down to the fact that the HAL-private entity partnership that the Indian government was looking for was much harder to implement in practice. What's more, I've heard that they are not pursuing public-private partnership for the AMCA program anymore. How true are these?
Both are true to a certain extent. MoD & HAL will start including private players once it enters production similar to LCA Tejas
 

Windchime

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Both are true to a certain extent. MoD & HAL will start including private players once it enters production similar to LCA Tejas
Okay, so the plan to get private industry itself is not dead yet, right? Though, does that mean that the private sector involvement is scaled back? If it's just a mere "involvement", I could see it being less significant than the joint venture scheme which was supposed to be set up.
 

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