TR Artillery Systems & Projects

[Hexciter]

With the MDK (Distance Correction Kit), it will be able to reduce the deflections of 155mm howitzer shells (which may be up to 300m) with a kill radius of 50-150m to under 20m, at an almost negligible cost.

The kit, whose final tests are currently being made, will be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces in a short time.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1434149496301236225

 

[TheInsider]

I don’t understand why you are so negative in your expressions. What do you mean Grad ER comparison no good. Of course it is valid. But for a ground launched rocket. It was there to prove to you that the projectiles follow a parabolic trajectory. Grad and Grad-ER are land launched. So they are going to have different flight paths and trajectories if compared to an air launched rocket. But predominantly it still will follow a parabolic trajectory. A rocket when released from an air platform it will drop down a little bit. Then fire it’s motor to gain altitude to reach it’s apogee. Then go down following a trajectory, roughly as shown
It still follows a parabolic trajectory.
View attachment 30314
If you look at the flight path of a mdium range rocket dropped at 12 km altitude, it will follow a trajectory as shown. Flightpath is still predominantly parabolic.
View attachment 30311
View attachment 30315
My argument doesn’t say that air launched rockets will go 120km. That is a lie! In fact I was asking if any body knew! I even suggested a pro-rata guesstimating of 60+ km range.
Dont try to show yourself correct by falsely accusing me of saying stuff I haven’t said.
This argument has gone enough. And I am bored of Discussing it with you. So I will not reply any more. You are twisting the argument.

Apogees of air-launched rockets are different when compared to ground launch variants. Their parabolic trajectory is straighter. They don't have the big hump or peak point the ground-launched variants have. There is a reason for it but since you know everything maybe you can explain.

 

[Yasar_TR]

You may look at Israeli “Rampage” missile.
It is a 300mm diameter guided artillery rocket with a different seeker head adjusted to be used from F16 fighters at high altitude and high speed. They have fitted 4 of them on each jet.

Apparently, Israel has changed the ballistic flight trajectory of this missile substantially. It can fly between 1-9 km altitude and can make a number of manoeuvres to make it self less of a target. And dive in to intended target at 90degrees. This capability comes with compromises however. Rampage’s overall range and terminal speed suffers intensely. Nevertheless F16’s can still launch these from stand off distances. They have been battle tested in Syria extensively.

see page 21 & 22

https://uploads.fas.org/2019/11/FAS-ALBM.pdf

 

[TheInsider]

Informational material from the manufacturer states that Rampage is capable of flying at altitudes between roughly 1 and 9 km with an impact angle of up to 90°, meaning that the missile is likely capable of complex aero-ballistic maneuvers to fly at depressed trajectories or to execute steep vertical dives in its terminal phase.66 Boaz Levy, the General Manager and Executive Vice president of IAI’s Rockets and Space Group stated that the system “does not have a pure ballistic trajectory.”67 Its sophisticated satellite navigation and inertial navigation guidance systems are said to give the missile a CEP of less than 10 meters.68 IMI advertises the system as a “quantum leap in performance and extraordinary cost-effectiveness ratio.”6

Our missiles won't have such a depressed trajectory as the Israeli rampage. They have gone all the way so their missile is barely ballistic at this point. This is what I was trying to tell from the start but you kept on bringing characteristic ballistic trajectories(big arcs) while I was trying to explain depressed trajectories by saying straight/straighter.

 

[Yasar_TR]

MKE's Fırtına Blows Silently

Mechanical and Chemical Industry Incorporated Company (MKE A.Ş.) presented its Hybrid engine Fırtına (Storm) howitzer at IDEF 21.

www.turdef.com

In 2017 MKE was experimenting with hybrid solution of Firtina engine. But now this latest engine they have displayed in IDEF seems to be very promising.
1300HP power with 10000NM torque is enough to power most MBTs comfortably.
Again they have used an electro-diesel engine whereby they have done away with transmission and the need to have a second motor.
This new engine’s power, torque, maintenance intervals, full loaded range, weight and fuel consumption are much better than the all Diesel engine version. On paper this new engined Firtina is a no brainer.
This will also mean we can sell it whoever we want!
Come on MKE bring on the hybrid engine for Altay!

 

[Zafer]

MKE's Fırtına Blows Silently

Mechanical and Chemical Industry Incorporated Company (MKE A.Ş.) presented its Hybrid engine Fırtına (Storm) howitzer at IDEF 21.

www.turdef.com

In 2017 MKE was experimenting with hybrid solution of Firtina engine. But now this latest engine they have displayed in IDEF seems to be very promising.
1300HP power with 10000NM torque is enough to power most MBTs comfortably.
Again they have used an electro-diesel engine whereby they have done away with transmission and the need to have a second motor.
This new engine’s power, torque, maintenance intervals, full loaded range, weight and fuel consumption are much better than the all Diesel engine version. On paper this new engined Firtina is a no brainer.
This will also mean we can sell it whoever we want!
Come on MKE bring on the hybrid engine for Altay!

View attachment 30532
View attachment 30534

But how fast can the 2.8lt engine let the Fırtına speed when the batteries are depleted?
A tank is a different beast, while the howitzer can sit in the same place for extended periods of time a tank needs to move faster and longer. Altay can have the 1000hp to 1500hp engine and add electric on top of it. A parallel hybrid will enable this instead of a serial hybrid.

 

[Abdelaziz]

But how fast can the 2.8lt engine let the Fırtına speed when the batteries are depleted?
A tank is a different beast, while the howitzer can sit in the same place for extended periods of time a tank needs to move faster and longer. Altay can have the 1000hp to 1500hp engine and add electric on top of it. A parallel hybrid will enable this instead of a serial hybrid.

I think they will use the diesel engine as a generator beside the electric motor ..so its main purpose is to charge the battery .. and howitzers doesnt require high maneuverability or high speed .. so hybride group will be imo good solution ..but its very different with tanks

 

[Yasar_TR]

But how fast can the 2.8lt engine let the Fırtına speed when the batteries are depleted?
A tank is a different beast, while the howitzer can sit in the same place for extended periods of time a tank needs to move faster and longer. Altay can have the 1000hp to 1500hp engine and add electric on top of it. A parallel hybrid will enable this instead of a serial hybrid.

As per @Abdelaziz ‘s explanation, Firtina doesn’t really need a lot of speed. But these are electric motors continuously powered by a generator and batteries. Generator will keep supplying electric motors whilst charging the batteries and the system will use the electricity produced by both. Even when engine is ticking over it would be charging the batteries. When batteries are depleted it is most likely that the fuel for the generator is depleted too.
For a tank though, we will need a hybrid set up that will develop power with very different usage characteristics. But nevertheless if we can produce E-M113s with the same electro power, we should be able to produce a power set up that can satisfy the sudden moves and continuous power usage of a tank.
While what you are suggesting will provide power for a tank, and is a perfectly capable system, if we really need very high torque and quick acceleration coupled with continuous power usage, then a special set up has to be envisaged.

 

[TurDef]

We have some interesting news for Fırtına and Altay. We have spoken to Ukrainians at IDEF and they said they are in negotiations with Turkey for both Altay and Fırtına. They will provide 6TD-2 for Fırtına and apparently a new one 6TD-4 for Altay. https://www.turdef.com/Article/return-of-6td-engines-for-altay-and-firtina/644 (In case you have a problem hearing the voice it is a problem that happens at PSc but not at phones. and not all pcs. We hope to solve it.

 

[TheInsider]

I think Ukrainian engines are very suitable for diesel-electric hybrid setup with their compact size fuel-efficiency and high power output, they are however don't generate a lot of torque due to engine architecture but this won't be important in a hybrid design. IMHO we should think out of the box and catch the current trends. Diesel generator+ a small(100-150kWh which will act as a buffer) battery and supercapacitor(for the instant high ampere loads) pack+electrical motor will be a groundbreaking move. In this setup, even a 1000 or 1200HP engine will be more than enough for Altay as electrical motors produce insane torque and MBTs use and need 1500hp rarely very situational. When extra power is needed battery pack will step in and when not needed diesel generator will fill the battery pack by continuous operation. We should move away from very complex mechanical transmissions.

 

[Abdelaziz]

I think Ukrainian engines are very suitable for diesel-electric hybrid setup with their compact size fuel-efficiency and high power output, they are however don't generate a lot of torque due to engine architecture but this won't be important in a hybrid design. IMHO we should think out of the box and catch the current trends. Diesel generator+ a small(100-150kWh which will act as a buffer) battery and supercapacitor(for the instant high ampere loads) pack+electrical motor will be a groundbreaking move. In this setup, even a 1000 or 1200HP engine will be more than enough for Altay as electrical motors produce insane torque and MBTs use and need 1500hp rarely very situational. When extra power is needed battery pack will step in and when not needed diesel generator will fill the battery pack by continuous operation. We should move away from very complex mechanical transmissions.

Americans were unable to produce a robust diesel engine for m1a1 tank ..so they used a derivative of gas turbine one .. so hybride packs should be tried ..but also conventional powerpacks should be available ..coz a lot of foreign customers will prefer it over new hybrid tech

 

[Stimpy75]

@TheInsider https://raigap.dreamwidth.org/966299.html

raigap | Проекты БМП : БМП-У от ХКБМ и БМП от "Української бронетехніки" (Украина. 2017 - 2018 год).

raigap.dreamwidth.org

Just use Google translate

 

[Ryder]

Americans were unable to produce a robust diesel engine for m1a1 tank ..so they used a derivative of gas turbine one .. so hybride packs should be tried ..but also conventional powerpacks should be available ..coz a lot of foreign customers will prefer it over new hybrid tech

Americans are really behind when it comes to diesel.

 

[TurDef]

When it comes to Fırtına's hybrid engine, an engineer told me that it is very risky to use batteries on the battlefield. It is not possible to extinguish such batteries if they are caught in a fire and they get very unstable due to gun fires. He says that each shake due to the fire adds instability to the battery. He is a chemical engineer as well as a mechanical engineer. I do not know what kind of batteries are used. Any idea?

 

[Combat-Master]

When it comes to Fırtına's hybrid engine, an engineer told me that it is very risky to use batteries on the battlefield. It is not possible to extinguish such batteries if they are caught in a fire and they get very unstable due to gun fires. He says that each shake due to the fire adds instability to the battery. He is a chemical engineer as well as a mechanical engineer. I do not know what kind of batteries are used. Any idea?

If the battery is sealed and away from the crew compartment, I don't see it being any riskier than say Diesel or Petrol. Plus, there are special additives that can be added to water to distinguish battery fires quicker - as the world moves on to electric vehicles so will developments in battery safety systems. I don't see why Turkey shouldn't push the limits and find what works and what doesn't.

 

[Zafer]

When it comes to Fırtına's hybrid engine, an engineer told me that it is very risky to use batteries on the battlefield. It is not possible to extinguish such batteries if they are caught in a fire and they get very unstable due to gun fires. He says that each shake due to the fire adds instability to the battery. He is a chemical engineer as well as a mechanical engineer. I do not know what kind of batteries are used. Any idea?

Aspilsan uses "NMC / Graphite" chemistry.

 

[Yasar_TR]

One main thing Li-Ion batteries don’t like is water. Japanese use them in Soryu class submarines.
Tesla use them on their all electric cars. Cars do have accidents. If there were health and safety issues about them, US and almost all other governments would never allow them on the road.

 

[Abdelaziz]

When it comes to Fırtına's hybrid engine, an engineer told me that it is very risky to use batteries on the battlefield. It is not possible to extinguish such batteries if they are caught in a fire and they get very unstable due to gun fires. He says that each shake due to the fire adds instability to the battery. He is a chemical engineer as well as a mechanical engineer. I do not know what kind of batteries are used. Any idea?

Will not be much riskier than fuel tank

 

[Era_shield]

When it comes to Fırtına's hybrid engine, an engineer told me that it is very risky to use batteries on the battlefield. It is not possible to extinguish such batteries if they are caught in a fire and they get very unstable due to gun fires. He says that each shake due to the fire adds instability to the battery. He is a chemical engineer as well as a mechanical engineer. I do not know what kind of batteries are used. Any idea?

The thing is already full of high explosives. A battery isn't gonna make a difference.

 

[Zafer]

Fire departments have a very hard time putting out electric car battery fires as far as we see from news.
But the risk level of fire hazard and battery energy density can be traded as it varies by the amount of Cobalt in NMC/Graphite batteries that Aspilsan is producing.