TR Economy & Updates

[B_A]

Japan started modernizing in 1868 and the Ottomans began reforming in 1839 despite this, Japan had it much easier than the Ottomans. The population of the Ottoman Empire was 27,230,000 in 1831, and the population of Japan was over 30 million at the start of the 1800s and was 34,985,000 in 1873. the Japanese population was completely Japanese, while the Ottoman Empire only had about 7 to 9 million Turks, thus making it harder for the Ottomans to modernise.

The Ottomans were also invaded constantly every decade, while the Japanese have been invaded only once in their entire history back in the 1300s by the Mongols, and even that wasn't really an invasion as most of the Mongol fleet was destroyed by a storm. The constant wars with the other great powers led to the massacre of the local population and economic devastation, thus leading to a debt crisis.

South Korea and Taiwan had export-driven industrialisation starting in the 60s, while Turkey maintained an import-substitution industrial development model developed during the Kemalist one-party era. Turkey's development model led to an inefficient economy until Turgut Özal reformed the Turkish economy into an export-driven industrialisation model. In other words, Turkey only adopted the same economic model 20 years after the Asian tigers.

Turkey's failed import-substitution industrial development model for 50 years led to a rent-seeking and clientelist environment across Turkey. The rent-seeking had such a greatly impacted that not-profitable state-subsidized companies employed around 14% of the population in the 80s. The cultural impact of 50 years of this practice has led to mass corruption of Turkish institutions that today manifests as AKP clientelism. The CHP has its share of clientelist and rent-seeker patrons; this can be seen at the municipality level, where the system is at its strongest.

South Korea had a similar problem in the form of chaebol, with the largest ten making up 60 per cent of its economy. The difference between Turkey rent-seekers and the Korean chaebol is that they were designed to grow into world brands that bring profit back to Korea from abroad. The Turkish companies were designed to create domestic Turkish equivalents of foreign products to turn Turkey into an industrialised autarky.

Here is an easy about Turkeys rent-seeking

Thank you very much

Also

1.Japanese won a war aganist Qing Chinese and get millions money to improving the industry

2.Import-substitution industrial development model was a pre-1980 British model which used by South American East Middle and other developing countries,almost fail ,including British itself.

3.Maybe because the lack of investment,In our culture we only value practical engineering and lack the passion for science itself,we have to train more scientists like Japanese done

 

[Nilgiri]

Thank you very much

Also

1.Japanese won a war aganist Qing Chinese and get millions money to improving the industry

2.Import-substitution industrial development model was a pre-1980 British model which used by South American East Middle and other developing countries,almost fail ,including British itself.

3.Maybe because the lack of investment,In our culture we only value practical engineering and lack the passion for science itself,we have to train more scientists like Japanese done

Japan had head start in three key ways over Turkiye:

A) Meiji reform era started in 1868 versus Turkish republic founding in 1923 (i.e 50 years difference) and what this means for various institutional building + reform that was done in this period of time that Ottomans did not address due to preoccupation of keeping empire and older system intact.

B) Nature of Ottoman era breaking up that Japanese Empire never had to deal with (i.e home island basis + relative homogeneous empire to start out with in 19th century...and also limited direct borders with new "ex-ottoman" neighbouring opponents with heavy grievance).

Japanese empire met 20th century start with an ascendancy (of having united more compared to shogunate era etc) compared to Ottoman empire being descendant one (and missing out on lot of things that could have been done).

C) The very role of the home island geography leading towards navy + trade easily (and hard to invade etc) and force + economic projection that lends to this more easily (this work in favour for UK and US as well for similar reason). These are big advantages sustained even after WW2 defeat....and one Japanese could sustain and expand much more easily with US security partnership taking care of sea trade routes and provision of security umbrella against the communist land mass to west.

Its much more simpler crystallised model there compared to what Turkiye had to manage with in 2nd half of 20th century.

Turkish security situation w.r.t its longer term history, unique geography and setting.... and its impact on Turkish psyche today is very unique thing to anywhere in world and is fraught with challenges to meander and manage.

A very interesting country and society for me for this reason past the culture, economy and so on.

 

[Ahlatshah]

Japan had head start in three key ways over Turkiye:

A) Meiji reform era started in 1868 versus Turkish republic founding in 1923 (i.e 50 years difference) and what this means for various institutional building + reform that was done in this period of time that Ottomans did not address due to preoccupation of keeping empire and older system intact.

B) Nature of Ottoman era breaking up that Japanese Empire never had to deal with (i.e home island basis + relative homogeneous empire to start out with in 19th century...and also limited direct borders with new "ex-ottoman" neighbouring opponents with heavy grievance).

Japanese empire met 20th century start with an ascendancy (of having united more compared to shogunate era etc) compared to Ottoman empire being descendant one (and missing out on lot of things that could have been done).

C) The very role of the home island geography leading towards navy + trade easily (and hard to invade etc) and force + economic projection that lends to this more easily (this work in favour for UK and US as well for similar reason). These are big advantages sustained even after WW2 defeat....and one Japanese could sustain and expand much more easily with US security partnership taking care of sea trade routes and provision of security umbrella against the communist land mass to west.

Its much more simpler crystallised model there compared to what Turkiye had to manage with in 2nd half of 20th century.

Turkish security situation w.r.t its longer term history, unique geography and setting.... and its impact on Turkish psyche today is very unique thing to anywhere in world and is fraught with challenges to meander and manage.

A very interesting country and society for me for this reason past the culture, economy and so on.

As a history lover, I'd like to add that; there was an immense political instability in the Ottoman Empire. 12 of last 20 sultans dethroned via coups, some of them killed. One cannot make necessary reforms to modernize a country such conditions. The most important thing, I mean the first thing in a country is, its military MUST stay away from the politics, everything comes after that. Japan had militarist administrators, but not coups. There are some sociologic factors differ Japanese from us, but I will not get in there.

Even in modern Türkiye, there are 8 coups or serious coup attempts, some successful some failed. If you take from 1960 (first coup), average attempts reduce to 1 in 7 years. There is no need to say that how many years these coups have taken away much valuable years from us. No political stability, no rapid development.

Not to mention other wars we participated or deeply felt on our doorstep. Even today, there is no country in the world which has to protect every inch of its borders except Türkiye. That is why most of us feel as security first, why we are here in this very site and interested in military technology. If objectively taken these and other factors into consideration, our development curve is not bad imo.

 

[Sanchez]

Japanese militarist culture, especially after 1904 war, and growing from there until 1945 is usually overlooked. They didn't have coups, but army officers not liking a decision made by the civilian leadership and sometimes even high ranking generals, viewing the act as "unholy" for nation of Japan and assassinating the people who made the decision was a thing. It was so bad and so regular that these assassinations were rarely chased after with official inquiries. Many of the bomb attacks Chinese were supposedly guilty of in 30s were in actuality Japanese Kwantung officers. Many of the civilian leaders who wrote their memories talk about always being on edge, looking for the shadows, being afraid of making the "bad" decision and getting killed for it in an assassination before they lost the war. May 15 assassination spirit was pretty much alive, where 11 young officers killed the prime minister who had signed the London Naval Treaty and were just given light prison sentences at best.

We didn't have anything of the sort in Turkey, coups were for the most part were pretty structured, there was no chaos, except in 2016.

 

[No Name]

Thank you very much

Also

1.Japanese won a war aganist Qing Chinese and get millions money to improving the industry

2.Import-substitution industrial development model was a pre-1980 British model which used by South American East Middle and other developing countries,almost fail ,including British itself.

3.Maybe because the lack of investment,In our culture we only value practical engineering and lack the passion for science itself,we have to train more scientists like Japanese done

1. my point was that Japan always got to choose when they are going to be in a war or not.

2. the problem with that model is that it wastes resources in inefficient industries. The relies on the government covering the bill incentivising corruption as the economic actors and governments slowly become linked. the system creates a cronyism capitalist society discouraging foreign investors while keeping the economy uncompetitive on the global stage.

3. That may be a combination of the cultural reforms of the republic and how Arab-heavy Islam is. The republic since the first days treated science as a thing that is nothing but a tool to catch up to Europe (a means to an end). At the same time, the Turkish education system was used to spread propaganda and reshape the local people to the ideals of a small Westernized group of national elites. As a by-product, many people were turned off from the education system.

Arabic's place in Islam also strongly affected why many Muslim countries lack passion for education. Since the religion of Islam generally has discouraged the translation of the holy text into other languages, this led to many non-Arab individuals just not putting as much importance on reading and writing. The Arabic problem also causes Muslim countries to adopt a terrible education system that discourages critical, and creative thinking in favour of simple memorisation.

The main reason the Enlightenment happened in the West was because of the increase of literate due to the protestant reformation translating the bible into different languages. This meant that the act shifted religious individuals away from relying on clergymen or the memorization of other interpretations.
Nautilus Quarterly explained that researchers had found a collation between religious groups that had access to holy text in their language and improved literacy by up to 20 per cent.

The great irony is that Islam is one of the few religions that actually encouraged scientific passion. The first revelation to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be upon Him) from Allah was “Iqra” which means to Read! To seek knowledge. Ataturk tried to fix this problem but due to him stupidly getting rid of the caliphate, and establishing a French-style state he lost most of his credibility to implement long-lasting religious reform. If Ataturk had maintained the sultanate in some form, then he would have had the same type of religious impact as Martin Luther, and the way Turks and other Muslims approach science would be closer to the Islamic golden age.

As a history lover, I'd like to add that; there was an immense political instability in the Ottoman Empire. 12 of last 20 sultans dethroned via coups, some of them killed. One cannot make necessary reforms to modernize a country such conditions. The most important thing, I mean the first thing in a country is, its military MUST stay away from the politics, everything comes after that. Japan had militarist administrators, but not coups. There are some sociologic factors differ Japanese from us, but I will not get in there.

Even in modern Türkiye, there are 8 coups or serious coup attempts, some successful some failed. If you take from 1960 (first coup), average attempts reduce to 1 in 7 years. There is no need to say that how many years these coups have taken away much valuable years from us. No political stability, no rapid development.

Not to mention other wars we participated or deeply felt on our doorstep. Even today, there is no country in the world which has to protect every inch of its borders except Türkiye. That is why most of us feel as security first, why we are here in this very site and interested in military technology. If objectively taken these and other factors into consideration, our development curve is not bad imo.

the problem was that most of the Coup d'etat was done by idiots who believed they could make the state better by copying and pasting the culture and institutions of another country onto Turkey/Ottoman Empire. The stupid thing is that they didn't even understand the Western country they copied or their own country which is why it was these idiot Young Ottomans and Young Turks who caused the most death and distraction to the state. the Young ottoman lost half the empire, and the Young Turks lost the rest.

 

[Ahlatshah]

Japanese militarist culture, especially after 1904 war, and growing from there until 1945 is usually overlooked. They didn't have coups, but army officers not liking a decision made by the civilian leadership and sometimes even high ranking generals, viewing the act as "unholy" for nation of Japan and assassinating the people who made the decision was a thing. It was so bad and so regular that these assassinations were rarely chased after with official inquiries. Many of the bomb attacks Chinese were supposedly guilty of in 30s were in actuality Japanese Kwantung officers. Many of the civilian leaders who wrote their memories talk about always being on edge, looking for the shadows, being afraid of making the "bad" decision and getting killed for it in an assassination before they lost the war. May 15 assassination spirit was pretty much alive, where 11 young officers killed the prime minister who had signed the London Naval Treaty and were just given light prison sentences at best.

We didn't have anything of the sort in Turkey, coups were for the most part were pretty structured, there was no chaos, except in 2016.

Mr. Sanchez, I know you are a great expert and I respect you a lot, really do, but I am totally disagree with you. No chaos? I will not go deeper since it is not the topic, nor go to even 19. century; disastrous balkan wars, 18 coup attempts (İnonü said so) in 60s, leftist- rightist movements in 70s, PKK and now some very conservative movements and dervish orders in 80s and afterwards all byproduct of coups. Not to mention political stability which is absolute necessity for development and prosperity. Destruction of sociological institutions after each coup, even in the military, is an unbelievable level. Even the political party sultanate (which is now a sociological institution itself unfortunately) that we crying out loud against, is the byproduct of the coups.

I think you mean chaos as a disorder in military, what I describe is consequences or aftermaths of coups, which are always the chaos, always the chaos. We paid heavily for these coups, it seems we and I am afraid our children will continue to suffer for a long time to come

 

[Sanchez]

Mr. Sanchez, I know you are a great expert and I respect you a lot, really do, but I am totally disagree with you. No chaos? I will not go deeper since it is not the topic, nor go to even 19. century; disastrous balkan wars, 18 coup attempts (İnonü said so) in 60s, leftist- rightist movements in 70s, PKK and now some very conservative movements and dervish orders in 80s and afterwards all byproduct of coups. Not to mention political stability which is absolute necessity for development and prosperity. Destruction of sociological institutions after each coup, even in the military, is an unbelievable level. Even the political party sultanate (which is now a sociological institution itself unfortunately) that we crying out loud against, is the byproduct of the coups.

I think you mean chaos as a disorder in military, what I describe is consequences or aftermaths of coups, which are always the chaos, always the chaos. We paid heavily for these coups, it seems we and I am afraid our children will continue to suffer for a long time to come

I'm not an expert on anything, just a student of everything

I did mean chaos during the "change of power", yes. I do agree with you on all parts. Coups were a net negative on Turkey. But they were bloodless, for the most part, and I do mean in modern history. If we go for Ottoman times after 17th century, it's heads rolling down all the way. Mine wasn't a comment on Turkish political structure but a foray to the Japanese one to look at the Japanese "mind".

 

[B_A]

I'm not an expert on anything, just a student of everything

I did mean chaos during the "change of power", yes. I do agree with you on all parts. Coups were a net negative on Turkey. But they were bloodless, for the most part, and I do mean in modern history. If we go for Ottoman times after 17th century, it's heads rolling down all the way. Mine wasn't a comment on Turkish political structure but a foray to the Japanese one to look at the Japanese "mind".

Mr. Sanchez, I know you are a great expert and I respect you a lot, really do, but I am totally disagree with you. No chaos? I will not go deeper since it is not the topic, nor go to even 19. century; disastrous balkan wars, 18 coup attempts (İnonü said so) in 60s, leftist- rightist movements in 70s, PKK and now some very conservative movements and dervish orders in 80s and afterwards all byproduct of coups. Not to mention political stability which is absolute necessity for development and prosperity. Destruction of sociological institutions after each coup, even in the military, is an unbelievable level. Even the political party sultanate (which is now a sociological institution itself unfortunately) that we crying out loud against, is the byproduct of the coups.

I think you mean chaos as a disorder in military, what I describe is consequences or aftermaths of coups, which are always the chaos, always the chaos. We paid heavily for these coups, it seems we and I am afraid our children will continue to suffer for a long time to come

Thank everybody

İn my opinion the post 1945 japon is likes we received Treaty of Sevres and under direct control of West superpower,of coz it had good things and bad things.

And the pre-1945 Japanese empire in political or military term I think that no better than late ottoman very far (of course their navy far better)

But in technology and industrial they are far better than Ottoman empire/early republic at same time.

I wonder if that's the culture reason that we can't create great scientists at that period,even Serbia had Tesla and Japanese had a number of Nobel prize scientist.

 

[Heartbang]

even Serbia had Tesla

The US had Tesla, which happened to be Serbian. Big difference.

 

[Bozan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1686450256865542148

"30-40% of graduates from technical departments of Elite Turkish Universities have fled abroad"

 

[Agha Sher]

A current account surplus of $0.67bn in June (first time in 2 years). Hopefully the one for July and August will be even higher.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/turkish-june-current-account-surplus-$674-million-more-than-forecast

 

[B_A]

A current account surplus of $0.67bn in June (first time in 2 years). Hopefully the one for July and August will be even higher.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/turkish-june-current-account-surplus-$674-million-more-than-forecast

Thank god finally

But why we got so large deficit last two years ？

I remember that in 2019（or 2020?) We got surplus yearly

 

[Agha Sher]

Thank god finally

But why we got so large deficit last two years ？

I remember that in 2019（or 2020?) We got surplus yearly

Lack of tourism income due to covid.

 

[GoatsMilk]

I'm not an expert on anything, just a student of everything

I did mean chaos during the "change of power", yes. I do agree with you on all parts. Coups were a net negative on Turkey. But they were bloodless, for the most part, and I do mean in modern history. If we go for Ottoman times after 17th century, it's heads rolling down all the way. Mine wasn't a comment on Turkish political structure but a foray to the Japanese one to look at the Japanese "mind".

In a world where its easy for americans or zionists to completely buy out your government, sometimes a coup is the lessor evil. Just look, had FETO completely succeeded, how does a nation save itself from a american/zionist conspiracy to turn the nation upside down from within? Not only politics was being incrementally taking over, but the media, the banks, big commercial entities, industry, schools, education etc.

Worth keeping in mind that FETO and the political islamists were the biggest pushers of dismantling the armies safety mechanism. When Ataturk made the army the protector of the constitution he did so foreseeing how the politics can be completely undermined from outside entities. He even warned the nation of this eventual possibility in his address to youth.

The problem isn't coups, the problem is the basic education level of the citizens. If the people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dumb, then its very easy for the outsider to play games with the state, very easy. This is why something like FETO can grow so big and so strong in Turkiye, but it couldn't happen in England.

Its also why the American/Zionist backed FETO/ AK party Islamists etc, America and the EU were all pushing Turkiye to become more "democratic" and to do everything to specifically reduce the Armies safety mechanism over the constitution. Coups in Turkiye are not like coups in egypt or africa where the army comes in and takes over creating a military dictatorship, they were always about moving in restoring the constitution and moving back out for new elections to take place.

Honestly the americans/zionists have been successful in creating the pys-op that coups in Turkiye are bad, they were one of the things protecting the nation. Erdogan was Feto's child, if tomorrow he decides to side with them again which is very possible, there is no mechanism in Turkiye to protect it left. That means your entire nation has been conquered and subdued by the americans/zionists and they didnt even need to declare war on us to do.

Its for good reason that America is the worlds only super power, these guys are no fools.

 

[Nilgiri]

In a world where its easy for americans or zionists to completely buy out your government, sometimes a coup is the lessor evil. Just look, had FETO completely succeeded, how does a nation save itself from a american/zionist conspiracy to turn the nation upside down from within? Not only politics was being incrementally taking over, but the media, the banks, big commercial entities, industry, schools, education etc.

Worth keeping in mind that FETO and the political islamists were the biggest pushers of dismantling the armies safety mechanism. When Ataturk made the army the protector of the constitution he did so foreseeing how the politics can be completely undermined from outside entities. He even warned the nation of this eventual possibility in his address to youth.

The problem isn't coups, the problem is the basic education level of the citizens. If the people are intellectually lazy and emotionally dumb, then its very easy for the outsider to play games with the state, very easy. This is why something like FETO can grow so big and so strong in Turkiye, but it couldn't happen in England.

Its also why the American/Zionist backed FETO/ AK party Islamists etc, America and the EU were all pushing Turkiye to become more "democratic" and to do everything to specifically reduce the Armies safety mechanism over the constitution. Coups in Turkiye are not like coups in egypt or africa where the army comes in and takes over creating a military dictatorship, they were always about moving in restoring the constitution and moving back out for new elections to take place.

Honestly the americans/zionists have been successful in creating the pys-op that coups in Turkiye are bad, they were one of the things protecting the nation. Erdogan was Feto's child, if tomorrow he decides to side with them again which is very possible, there is no mechanism in Turkiye to protect it left. That means your entire nation has been conquered and subdued by the americans/zionists and they didnt even need to declare war on us to do.

Its for good reason that America is the worlds only super power, these guys are no fools.

Its why countries need good follow up after the nationalist visionary that "got it" (Ataturk in this case).

There need to be a steady succession of like minded folks in and around the levers of power to build up the robust strategic core and order of the nation.

Otherwise with time all kind of pressures accumulate from inside and outside....and entropy and atrophy create deterioration and the core enters a state of the frog going into slow boil....and it becomes more a matter of chance as to what disintegrates it later when the temperature simply exceeds basic physical capacities (its too late then).

It surprises me number of people in this forum that don't understand this, certain things grab their attention past the bigger picture of very important things that need to be addressed to be set right properly again for the smaller things to even have a chance of relevance.

The "ego" of a nation is very important balance in the end. It must absolutely get its "super ego" secure...to balance the nature of "id" in the reality too....given the varied intersections of this outside the nation.

 

[Bozan]

Craziest housing markets VS Turkey

 

[Tornadoss]

Craziest housing markets VS Turkey


View attachment 60086

And unlike rest of Europe, there are tons of new construction

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Craziest housing markets VS Turkey


View attachment 60086

View attachment 60087

And yet, no reaction of the people other than crying on social media. Turks as a whole became such submissive people it's sad. No fire in the people anymore... And this is just one example of a fucking billion.

 

[Heartbang]

Craziest housing markets VS Turkey


View attachment 60086

View attachment 60087

It would be nice if Japan was in the graph.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Dont forget there are happy honse owners

Actually people were happy while Japan Hong Kong Chinese house price rising.

I don't give to shits what ching chang, japan or whoever the fuck was in their housing crisis.
People, especially the young. The future of every fucking Country is NOT happy. And like I said, the housing crisis is one problem of a billion.