Friendly advice coming for the absolute last time.
Will get this off my chest for good since I am just going to be short of time and patience going forward for this kind of thing popping up again and again and again.
Might as well rant all together bit now and see what sticks. Kick 2020 in the rear and hope 2021 will be new etc.
Let me start by saying if you are logical and rational, it is best in
"well established process" of
A --B---C----D etc, that if you do not like what you get at D 99% of the time, to maybe consider if doing A "gotcha" is worth it...esp in some new place setup better than an old one.
Or is it more a case you take a secret like of what you get at D?
I don't know.... you know yourself best. But I suggest introspect + correct...or if you can't handle it, dont start it.
Look around, do you see massive hordes of earlier kind you are used to that turn you "pink" even when you were plainly reasonable (but uncomfortable to them)?...yet types that left their hordes untouched and returning however clearly and plainly unreasonable they were?
If you don't see that here, then adapt to the new setting please. Let whatever others stay at their usual setting, that's on THEM. Are you better than them or not?
Let me say people drawn to these news stories and threads (even in small and growing forum like this one) are not anywhere near the majority to begin with...most people are fairly or neutrally oriented given they have perspectives they have w.r.t own (or their neighbouring) countries issues...or they simply are not interested in such topics to begin with.
As far as possible it is best left for them (larger audience/gathering) to figure out rather than have shoved in their face in our local-region "context". Just my opinion/suggestion on adapting to new setting here and have temp setting fair as can be.
Thus those that do come and engage in this
"well established and known process" by some bait you laid out (or the bait they laid out for you), are in the minority and have long formed their opinion (however biased and stupid it may be) on it..
.and you aren't really doing anything to change those.
You can find small or large gatherings of such people and convince yourself it all matters somehow, but really their overall % in population remains the same, past, present and future....just the agendas and issues change over history.
If one has truly figured that out, one has elevated oneself, and will unlock more elevation with time. Let me tell you that quite frankly as one that dabbled in this for a while himself but has long seen the folly in it.
So why initiate and persist in such topics after all that's been done elsewhere and here?
Why not let the other (bad faith) initiate always, and you simply respond with a full, reasoned, calm picture in mind (good faith) rather than counter-hubris (bad faith)?
Do the judo, make full use of the opponents move, but he must present it to you first. He must pitch that ball before you can put it to the boundary...rather than you doing some sledging and not liking the beamer.
Nail on nail stuff is dumb and counter-productive (IMO). Prodding and gnarly, ew.
Best bring out the big, best hammer (AFTER the nail has been shown) very specifically, smartly and matter of factly and do the carpenter knock just once and firm... then let fair reasoned people (who often read but dont interact for a reason) judge it and unfair unreasoned people get triggered by it (since there is no saving them on the basic logic/debate), simple.
I mean "Big hammer/big picture wise" ...Pakistan estabishment (with names like Suhrawardy among them) started with 2/3rds of the subcontinents muslim population, correlating better (than now forsure) with the stated majoritarian nationhood sentiment (that was
totally not politically expedient for a few).
It now has 1/3rd. Why? Would say some anonymous Bosnian really visit Dhaka to ask around?... while asserting its "just the same thing or worse by you?" Would he believe the majority muslim population of Dhaka (since Hindus are all biased for sake of argument) if they told him? Questions, questions.
Why not suggest that to him and leave it at that rather than do the silly gotcha games that just brings out the boring, predictable, ignorant, irrelevant retorts from all parties?
I mean is it not better to let the larger rational audience decide for themselves how silly the counter-hubris is? Why are you focused solely on the irrational few?
You have to let them weigh what one set of people and another set of people (of same faith they are trying to bridge with in some "I can trust/identify with people more when they are same faith" way) are on the same page on some foundational issue involving major spilling of blood and loss of life.
If they aren't on same page, you simply make it aware (to audience) and ask the fella to square that circle as he chooses to.
Rather than act in bad faith and try too hard for someone to agree with you right away, and get triggered when they dont...and then give them opening to do the 1 - 2 pathetic predictable retorts on your country...cmon we seen enough of that for several lifetimes over haven't we?
Aren't you slightest bit bored of it?
You need approach of thinking of EVERYONE thats going to read your conversation, not just the person you are replying to in the moment.
After all its clear to anyone neutral and unbiased enough what the largest realised failure of Hindustani psyche in modern times was:
@Kaptaan @VCheng @Yankeestani @Waz Are you guys aware that Imran has been recommending books. Al criticism aside, i think this is a good step. PM Imran's book club: This December, he recommends reading History of the Pathans With juggling household responsibilities, study workload and long...
defencehub.live
We the secular-aligned part of subcontinent having 2/3rds of the muslim population now - including the Suhrawardy half that left Pakistan extremely violently after some 25 year or so experiment.
All those Muslim victim names in operation searchlight (and the events after it across nearly a year) because they were apparently "lesser ones"....declared as such by the establishment some anonymous Bosnian is apparently infatuated with still as to asserted veracity without talking to one victim and people living in the places it occured, if he is really being honest/neutral on some notion of muslim suppression history (I guess some things strangely dont count?)
Why try change him? Just expose him and others like that. Then move on...and trust in the audience. Learn who is worth it and who isnt. Or be the same as them or similar to them, its your choice in the end.
We obviously have small, medium and large elements of this psyche-failure within our land too for sure (especially given vast scale and implementation of counter-mindset downstream especially with partition doing what it did and lingering).
But debate is how big and consequential those will be when looked with fair enough reasoning and context. Stuff like never having 1 year of genocide on half our population and losing that whole part of the country because of it...obviously helps us form our case better (we can debate how much though).
But we must seek to address OUR problems of which there are a growing number of now on this psyche issue too. Focusing on excessive finger pointing elsewhere (esp to those with complete lost cause psyche that should have zero reference for us) is just distracting and silly.
I instead suggest we focus inwards and if outwards, countries and people that are worth it.
Always punch up, never punch down as far as possible.
An example would be making as many bridges as possible with the former (Suhrawardy + Bongabandhu) half of Pakistan (who now deeply recognise and affirm by their very existence... what the better psyche is and involves in the end and the liberation movement fought at great expense to achieve it), since they are survivors of the previous (and ongoing) psyche failure that has set into the Pak establishment even more so now (at great cost to their people and our people too)
It is in our advantage to do so (bridge building with positive focus). i.e past psyche+civ success and future outlook to be the focus. What we had at partition, what we nurtured an set up within us in higher worthy ambition... and what we helped liberate from the negative side of the psyche (yes a muslim majority place by far and a full half of what joined that aegis foolishly, learned from it, left it and now proves us right more than anything else can)
So why instead engage excessively on the rearward failure-based focus/outlook? As though these lessons involving countless people now are not meaningful?
One based on something like religion (which I can go into deeply as to the deep flaw in doing that, at levels most people dont realise)....and where its most concentrated obviously in the region, given it lost 50% of its country/economy/population it started boldly with... in most unparalleled, terrible way in 20th century in span of just a few years out of its own elitists takfiri doing.
I mean by focusing on this kind of thing (esp given our own louts, thugs and politicians doing so collectively on our own diverse sub-identities grossly and unfairly)
is the largest reason we are stuck at 30 - 35% savings rate of GDP (And in danger of slipping to mid 20s again), when we need to be pushing that by 10% more to get as close to 50% as possible.
This is single largest factor of the last few decades that has pressed on our brakes w.r.t what China has achieved...sadly earning their totalitarians (who make our louts, thugs and politicians seem a picnic) the massive buffer to compartmentalise and segregate non-Han (Tibetans, Uighurs etc) and destroy their unique existence (or even lives directly) even more than the past and likely forever...aided by their foundationally much tinier prevalence to being with compared to the Han (as the "west gate" "walker around beijing" here likes to trumpet from time to time as some "OK" justification for it)
Same thing (as India) with Bangladesh, they need to sort out their psyche issues as well to get their 30% savings rate to far higher as possible too.
Sorting out your psyche = more trust in the system you see = more regular joes saving up into it = basic way out of the larger problems so our future generations dont get stuck with them.
What you don't do is continually ogle or circle the drain (with same ole same ole folks) w.r.t countries in region
that have barely 7% savings rate and are forced to import 3 times that because of their establishment + elitists psyche problems.
i.e Stop punching down in your free + better time. Punch down only when the down-twerp is really asking for it.
I have said this over and over again, its painfully obvious why India and Persia can do sounding rockets and space program tiers from ballistic missile genesis (in India's case a Muslim from my neck of the woods played an immense role in it)...as one would naturally expect a continuous transition between them to exist rather than the void regarding this in reality.
The issue is therefore psychological...and the sheer incomparable intensity of it when you frontload new onto existing old (that already needs sorting through, addressing and good resolution).
So given this intensity with these guys (especially their online variant who have free time for extended internet shenanigans) I suggest you simply leave them to be as far as possible, and let action of time do its thing.
When they initiate, you respond wisely with gravitas of civilisation you have the name of. Not some new-fangled desperate counter to some new-fangled desperate 20th century identity-haste one.
Why you think this forum started in first place?
It was simply action of Pakistani elitist-psyche come to full consequence on even their asserted best of best brothers...because pressures/orders "materialised" again and again from iron brother (and further solidified related dependency +sycophancy on it).
They are literally unable to see this (how it looks to others, even their best well wishers) or are in denial about it...and hence with time the well-wishers (asserted or genuine) understand whats really going on in a way you and I (or any individual) simply cannot do.
This particular pysche after all has to juggle such things as asserted admiration of secular setup done by Ataturk, with shall we say non-secular setup done by Jinnah.
Everything else evolves downstream if you let it. Be it this forum's eventual need and creation... or hordes of trolls from this psyche piling up in ertugul instagram pages to "sermon" (rather than ogle, for they be a pious birader) at some actress.
Indians must realise that (in all instances, Turkey is just one, but relevant for this forum) rather than actively churn in it and punch down all cringey like out of the blue.
Rest of conversation on details here is too long to go into (regarding what has been intimated to me as to reality) if some brazen macro-numbers and realities arent enough already.
We and you must trust enough people in other countries have basic perception, cognition and reason, rather than do half-baked over-steer and become some negative focus as result.
Why do you think their (Pak establishment, elitists and proxy-elitists with "freetime") favourability/perception rating is what it is wherever "more developed" they go?
UK, US you name it. What's the integration like, the actual reality?
They form the same isolated communities, realities, echo-chambers and then squeal at everyone else reacting to that (fora are just easy current gathering for it)...and the big conspiracies (regarding Indians, jews, Gora and whomever else) they need to concoct for it.
Then we have similar psyches popping up in others too that faced intense recent bloody partitions (in other parts of world like former Yugoslavia) and see some bridge or connection with this lot...and attach like lamprey to it in some selective fashion.
Thats all on them...they are just one individual again, not a collective.
So why care too much?
Point is you aren't going to convince people like this (individuals exist, its part of life)...so its best to cut them loose as far as possible to do their thing...and instead you focus on us, those that are part of us (Indians, whatever religion/identity), strong connection to us (eg. Bangladesh) around the better parts of our psyche and work on addressing our faults to get to better macro-reality that will be seized by impressionable average joes (that matter most in the end) everywhere in world downstream more than we have done so far.
Look to what builds, not what has taken its toll and destroyed...that is what you should understand from, rather than bring as wedge or gotcha time and time again.
I mean you "brain-drained" back to India it seems...I plan to do the same (once I have really developed my potential as far as possible here in Canada on crucial technology sector for India)...
why waste time on the medieval or dark age issues and psyche?
I am supposed to really care and respond to what some segregated twerp in some bradford shop (a type prevalent at PDF) in his litte ghetto and safe space tells me about this and that...just because he can and has nothing better to do?
I should have the last word against such fellows and their ring-a-ding coteries that inevitably assemble biling and foaming at mouth but at least sparing me (through physical distance since its the internet) their likely body odour and actual spittle??
Or use time better with better people there (and now here)?..that actually has chance of changing something and getting somewhere?
We should be gathering more better people with better agenda and developing more links in broader world and try to bring THAT in here....rather than rearview mirror stuff that is best left to be read and understood by those most interested (and fair/unfair way is left to them) on THAT.
Thus why initiate topics like this? I ask you again.... Think twice or thrice next time...and maybe use your time better, focused on countries and processes that actually are climbing themselves out of the hole they were in (consider what India was seeing in the 90s, incl. savings rate then)...rather than digging deeper (cough, no need to mention who) and affirming their sugar daddy and dependency complex to feel warm about new-name and pure-name and core-ideology stuff...however they actually existed (on written and studied record) for centuries and millenia.
The cost benefit analysis of negative gotcha's versus positive steady building. It needs balancing.
90% of countries out there have their basic psyche and goals set right (or just inherited it in enough abundance, it's up for debate but basic trust/crediblity numbers and actions dont lie).
If the 10% that clearly dont (new names yada yada, we always existed irredentism yada yada, Zia-stronk, Qasim stronk schoolbooks say different to me but yada yada)... form 90% of your discussion/gotcha/thonk time...you need to re-evaluate that imbalance IMO.
Why do you think I don't particularly care about spending time in Indian forums? Even with us being in first (90%) category? Its stuff (person/agenda/elitist wise) I already know well, I just skim for information and stay current on certain topics at various places like that
So the 10% category countries (due to their sheer intensity drivel of elitists + establishment lost causes) ought to be known even better and left to cobweb for good w.r.t time spent on it (time is finite for a life) in places such as this. There is more than enough to go around for that elsewhere.
I like to learn what's NEW...not regurgitate/dwell on the old (esp if its dumb negative bozo crap)...as new+better stuff is what I can bring to India's advantage (and impact past its cringey elitist waffle layer too, the kind of thing that grossly accumulates everywhere in internet echo chambers in general).
I say build (as you care to) this forum up better and wiser with presence and time you spend (and bring/invite people to join that you know that are looking for a better, reasonable structure for interaction)...dont make it like old one or some twitter-twatter thing...or ar-knob vs lal-topi volume fest.
You improve yourself and set example for more, without expecting the same of others.
If they prefer to be stuck as is (so they can justify internal example/agenda esp as it solidified with age), so be it.
That is on them, that is their responsibility....you are accountable for yourself, those closest to you and God if you believe in that.
This is the difference between better and worse people in the end. Everyone sees it in the end.
Avoid antics with spoiled milk thats been dropped, pleading to a mod to mop it up because it looks unsightly now you say.
This was milk you took out of the fridge and left on counter knowing fully well the playtime-characters around the kitchen....even if they are far fewer than earlier setting and can carry themselves quite differently too.
That too as though this is the first time too. But you have choice to make it the last time right?
Just learn from it (for good), and also learn there is a great many things to eat, drink and relish on past milk perched on counter...(especially with better people, if you would just be so nice to give those already here a chance or bring them here to begin with).
It is 2021, a new year...please shape it up better here. Remember your nation's name and how old it is. Act like that, with full deference to your forefathers and lineage....and not like some fickle counter to some upstart-place with everything to prove and nasty narrative and dependency to enshrine on top (prompting a mass exodus of best friends even)... basically stuff that falls flat on heels each time when push comes to shove.
Don't be like them (especially when countering them). Let them be like them. They are doing a fine job at it with no parallel and it suits us far better to not get in the way or counter it excessively.
Let everyone else see it over time like they mostly have already here (voting with feet, moving away from cringey hypocrites that form the bread and butter of establishment of that named country forum, literally happened with closest asserted brothers, so scale appropriately for inevitable effects on the rest that take "interest" in them over time too).
There is literally a thousand better things to discuss here, rather than closed (psyche) chapters regarding this lot given two sets of people:
A) everyone (outside the narratives) that already know and learned final result (its why we are mostly here in first place) regd the Pak elitists and psyche
B) everyone that has long ago made up their mind on these things, having lived decades of narrative
@Paro ,
@Zapper ,
@Milspec @crixus @Raptor @Gautam @sarthak et al.
General "you" message to all Indians here.
