TR Naval Programs

[boredaf]

President ERDOĞAN: “We talked to different countries to build a real Aircraft Carrier, we are still in talks.”

Without a proper carrier group ready, by which I mean multiple TF2000s on top of frigates, it would be a colossal waste of money and time

 

[Manomed The Second]

Without a proper carrier group ready, by which I mean multiple TF2000s on top of frigates, it would be a colossal waste of money and time

He is playing for the crowd

 

[Radonsider]

By the time that TCG Uçak Gemisi is ready, we will probably have something around 8 TF-2000s lol

 

[Khagan1923]

President Erdogan: “We are increasing our defense industry budget to $75 billion.”

That would be a $50+ Billion jump. I'm sorry but that would put us above countries like France, UK, Japan, Russia and South Korea and smack in third with India with only China and US above us.

With the state the economy is in I don't see that happening even though our budget realistically should be around ~$40B-$50B. Sounds more likely a speech for election purposes. Right now we have $20B and even that most likely was streched to the limits.

With $75B Budget TSK would go crazy btw. Especially the Navy and Air Force.

 

[Zafer]

That would be a $50+ Billion jump. I'm sorry but that would put us above countries like France, UK, Japan, Russia and South Korea and smack in third with India with only China and US above us.

With the state the economy is in I don't see that happening even though our budget realistically should be around ~$40B-$50B. Sounds more likely a speech for election purposes. Right now we have $20B and even that most likely was streched to the limits.

With $75B Budget TSK would go crazy btw. Especially the Navy and Air Force.

Not the defence budget but the projects volume.

 

[Bogeyman]

That would be a $50+ Billion jump. I'm sorry but that would put us above countries like France, UK, Japan, Russia and South Korea and smack in third with India with only China and US above us.

With the state the economy is in I don't see that happening even though our budget realistically should be around ~$40B-$50B. Sounds more likely a speech for election purposes. Right now we have $20B and even that most likely was streched to the limits.

With $75B Budget TSK would go crazy btw. Especially the Navy and Air Force.

The private sector finances a part of the current project size. Thus, the total size is 60 billion dollars.
Among them, there are projects created by foundation companies with their own capital.

 

[I_Love_F16]

President Erdogan: “We are increasing our defense industry budget to $75 billion.”

It was already that amount since a few years. No way we are running all these projects with just 20 billions.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Not the defence budget but the projects volume.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1645400325350629378

I think Erdogan is talking about an additional $15 billion budget for the Defense Industry. The current total size was said to be $60 billion.

If it's the project volume in terms of defense industry projects in the public, and private sectors then the news that Erdogan delivered is not fully accurate?. I remember i read in a SSB catalog that the SSB was carrying out hundreds of projects with a budget of around 76 billion. I don't know how old the catalog is btw, could be 2020-2021, or 2022.

 

[Huelague]

President Erdogan: “We are increasing our defense industry budget to $75 billion.”

Thats the budget of defense projects.

 

[Zafer]

If it's the project volume in terms of defense industry projects in the public, and private sectors then the news that Erdogan delivered is not fully accurate?. I remember i read in a SSB catalog that the SSB was carrying out hundreds of projects with a budget of around 76 billion. I don't know how old the catalog is btw, could be 2020-2021, or 2022.

As projects get completed they fall off the calculated budget I guess hence the $60bn.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

A carrier battle group will not consist of a carrier alone so if a new carrier gets built within the decade then it would need a lot of submarines, and warships to complement it. A submarine or even a destroyer cant provide the capabilities that a floating air base will provide and vice versa. If the Turkish Navy wants an aircraft carrier then surely we will see a huge budget allocated to the navy.

If we take a look at countries in the aircraft carrier league such as France, Japan, or the UK then we see that they have at least:

- 10 submarines
- 15 frigates between 4500-6000 tons.
- 5 Destroyers over 6500 tons.


When looking at France, UK, and Japan then I have to say that Japan is in another league itself.

Turkey is in a good way when it comes to its submarine construction reaching at least 10 submarines by 2030. However, it will need a good amount of TF4500, as well as the TF2000. It depends on the financial aspect of it but also the building capacity of the naval shipyard. I'm not fully aware of how much the naval industry could squeeze out when it comes to production but Turkey has many naval shipyards. I remember that @Anmdt mentioned a few scenarios when a member asked if the construction of projects could be awarded to other private contractors such as dearsan but I don't remember his answer.


To conclude if the naval shipyard capacity can handle it, and the financial budget is in place then its fully feasible for the Navy to have a fully-fledged aircraft carrier with a huge Turkish navy by 2035.

 

[I_Love_F16]

See posts 4528 and 4548 of this thread.

I know. What I want to say is that we better focus our resources on what is being needed right now, e.g. Frigates and Destroyers. When our needs are fulfilled, it is only then that we can start broadening our horizon and thinking about an AC. Just my two cents.

 

[boredaf]

and the financial budget is in place

You do realize that is an enormous what if, right? An aircraft carrier itself costs billions of dollars, on top of building a lot of ships that needs to be in its carrier group. And we have 3 coasts we have to defend as well, so we can't just allocate all of our naval budget to create 1 carrier group.

 

[Afif]

So,why do france,UK, Italy and even Brasil have them?

Here, broadly we are talking about developing true BLUE WATER capability for Turkish Navy.

In light of that, a fleet of SSN should be the first priority. (I am not suggesting to abondan the idea of CSG altogether, rather just saying, considering the strategic logic for Turkey it should the second priority if possible)

Let me explain why.

A fleet of SSN has certain advantages over 1 or 2 aircraft carrier for medium powers like Turkey when it comes to developing true BLUE WATER capability.

1. First and foremost, when it comes to SUFFICIENT power projection with CGS only super power like USA (And maybe China) can afford that. Not even UK or France can do that even though they have carrier strike group with blue water capability.

because, France or UKs stand alone CSG capability is not good enough to fight an over sea war against a CAPABLE enemy. (Sure, they can bully some small and poor countries with that and win wars against them) But practically speaking, their CSGs capability is only deployed efficiently when integrated with other Nato assets, Most notably USN.

Why I am saying that? well, let's take an example.

(Hypothetically) If tomorrow a war between Greece and Turkey breaks out and France send a its one and only carrier strike group to support Greece, it is never going to be enough and Turkish Navy and Air force can overwhelm it and eventually sink it even though Turkey doesn't have its own Aircraft carrier.

If it were to be a US carrier strike group, it would be very different scenario, as US has lots of other naval, land and areal assets in the region to support that carrier strike group. And that is more or less true when US CGS is deployed anywhere in the world (In the Pacific, Mediterranean or Persian gulf)

The same problem Turkey could run into with its own stand alone carrier strike group trying to fight an oversea battle far away against a CAPABLE enemy completely on its own.

2. In that case, A fleet a SSN can effectively fight a war anywhere in the world completely on its own and has relatively better chance to win it. (In its own operational domain obviously)

3. Also when it comes to fighting numerically and conventionally superior enemy, SSN has the upper hand compared to carrier strike gouprs.

Lets say for example, if 1 CSG goes against 2/3 enemy CSGs it has less chance than 4/6 SSN going after two enemy CSG to sink them. (To understand the effectiveness and capability of SSN against carrier strike groups compared to conventional suface combatants, we need to dive deep into how modern naval warfare is fought)

Let's just say for shake of simplicity, modern SSNs are equivalent to stealth fighter in its capability and effectiveness when compared to other naval combatants.

Having said that we also have to keep in mind that, only USA, UK and Fracne has true BLUE water navies.

Even India and China despite having multiple aircraft carriers each, are still not consider true BLUE water navies yet.
Because, along with the lack of logistical capability to sustain large scale overseas operational deployment of CSG like US or UK they also lack proper underwater escorts. (Current Chinese SSN are too noisy and India doesn't have any SSN yet although they are going to lease one from Russia) which is most essential part of CSG to Protect the mother ship.

Sure, it is possible to deploy carriers with conventional SSK escort like India or China do, but it limits the CSGs full potential and does not allow far away combat deployment.

In a nutshell, without proper SSN escort a carrier strike group does not reach its long range blue water capability. ( And this is precisely the point for turkey to have a heavy carrier, otherwise thank it’s advantageous geographical location most of the surrounding regions are well within range Of TurAF)


That is why despite having carriers expect US, French and Royal navies, others are still not considered TRULY blue water.

More or less similar reason why Brazil is now primarily focused on building its FLEET of 4 SSN (with ToT from France) and a new carrier is their second concern.

Or the reason why Australia is going to spend over $300 bullion on its SSN program rather than building big aircraft carrier (and relatively cheap conventional submarines)

 

[Baryshx]

I think our priority should be nuclear-powered submarines before aircraft carriers, and we can cooperate with Russia in this regard. Like the S400 and Akkuyu nuclear power plant.

I don't think other options will help us, maybe Russia won't either...

 

[Baryshx]

yeah lets antoganize NATO even more.

NATO, the European Union are nothing, we should mind our own business. While we have the Swedish trump card on the sidelines...

We can continue to send messages of support and unity within NATO and the European Union.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Because both have about 4 times higher yearly military budget than us, on top of having overall economies that dwarf ours in almost every metric?

Turkey will be in goal when it comes to both the submarine size of its fleet, and also with the introduction of 4X TF-2000. The remaining gap would be to get some more heavy frigates into the inventory. Not let forget the I-class and the Hisar class OPV that will be built within the next decade.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Cenk-S

 

[dBSPL]

Turkish president RTE: Now, we are increasing our defense industry budget to 75 billion dollars with the ongoing projects.

I think this statement answers a lot of questions here. More importantly, the fact that the localization rate in defense is now approaching 80% indicates that the majority of these production and subsystem value-added costs will go to Turkish defense companies. In naval systems, especially Aselsan will increase its turnover by several times.

 

[Fairon]

No, lets say the budget is 10 billion dollar. It will be spread over 15 years if they start it in 2025.

That is kinda what i am saying.

The question is how much money can we allocate to the Navy?(How much money are we allocating now?) 10 Billion dollars roughly the cost for all the frigate replacement and TF-2000.(and it will also spread over 10-15 years.) Do we have additional 10 billion dolars for that time or will it be allocated from the other projects?(Frigates destroyers etc)