TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Yasar_TR]

One of my concerns is with ''re exported''

So that Turkiye can export without recourse, to third parties the products produced under the licence agreement or use technology exported to Turkiye from UK.
That is a free ticket to transfer all technology related to TFX, be it software, design features of KAAN, or its propulsion systems and giving freedom to re export to third parties.

 

[Peter66]

So that Turkiye can export without recourse, to third parties the products produced under the licence agreement or use technology exported to Turkiye from UK.
That is a free ticket to transfer all technology related to TFX, be it software, design features of KAAN, or its propulsion systems and giving freedom to re export to third parties.

Seems a bit too good to be true

 

[Rooxbar]

The PLM solutions used are from Dassault and Siemens.

 

[DBdev]

Rolls Royce was sidelined because of arrogant British insistence on having IP rights to the Turkish national turbofan engine of KAAN.

They lost billions, Americans, GE too lost since they refused to invest or help so now TRMotor is a separate firm. Brits are trying to at least get a piece of that propulsion pie. They do this same crap every time. They embargo or block us and when they see we will succeed beyond all their wildest expectations they suddenly remove road blocks in a panic. Never works for them though.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://x.com/mavivatannet/status/1720730178643488855?s=20

Negotiations are being held for 100+100 F404-GE-102 engines from the American General Electric company for the TUŞAŞ-produced Hürjet, developed to meet the Turkish Air Force's need for jet trainer and close air support aircraft in the near future.



Prof.Dr. Mahmut AKŞİT

if true 100+100 engine means at least 150+ Hürjet???

To support this news another credible enough source has also mentioned the same quantities. 200 f404 engines with first 100 being definite and a further 100 units on option.

HÜRJET için toplam 200 motor alımı hedefleniyor – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

TEI wants to manufacture these in house.
The only problem is, as the purchase is over a certain value (not like a few engines that can be sold freely in the case of prototypes) there should be congressional approval on these engines. That is a big obstacle to overcome.
It may have been more prudent to alter the design to accommodate an engine that is of the same pedigree as EJ200 from RR. At least we would have had an engine that we could easily manufacture in house with RR input and be able to sell to third party buyers. If tomorrow Pakistan or Azerbaijan wanted to buy Hurjet , USA will most likely behave in the same manner as they did for the Atak129 sale to Pakistan and block our sale.

100 engines mean 92-93 planes are planned for total definite production. With US engines the spares are usually calculated as an addition of about 8% ( a good example is the planned number of engines to be produced for our Blackhawk program; 236 engines for 109 helicopters means 18 spare engines-9 pairs for 109 helicopters.)

 

[TheInsider]

This is mostly about engines. This means our engine project is on track and pesky Brits smelled it and they are trying to sweeten the deal.

 

[Bogeyman]

Inside sources said that the agreement does not include the purchase of engines. Hopes are left to another spring, people.

But I'm still waiting for an answer from TAI. It will become clear soon.

 

[Zafer]

Inside sources said that the agreement does not include the purchase of engines. Hopes are left for another spring, guys.

That's good news then, we don't need to rely on the Brits for our Kaan engine.

 

[MADDOG]

Something I found...


The U.K.'s Export Control Joint Unit on Nov. 6 replaced and updated its open general export license for goods in support of the Turkish Aerospace Industries TF-X program. The new license replaces the revoked license and allows for the export of "software or technology for the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) TF-X Programme aircraft, also known as KAAN, from the U.K. to" Turkey and, in the case of reexports, the U.K.


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UK Updates Turkey-Related General Export License

exportcompliancedaily.com

ML4 Bombs, torpedoes, rockets, missiles, other explosive devices and charges, and equipment and accessories, as follows, and specially designed components therefor:

b. Equipment that is both specially designed for military use and specially designed for 'activities' relating to any of the following:​

1. Goods specified in ML4.a.; or

ML5 Fire control equipment and related alerting and warning equipment, related systems, test and alignment and countermeasure equipment, as follows, specially designed for military use, and specially designed components and accessories therefor:

a. Weapon sights, bombing computers, gun laying equipment and weapon control systems;

b. Target acquisition, designation, range-finding, surveillance or tracking systems; detection, data fusion, recognition or identification equipment; and sensor integration equipment;

c. Countermeasure equipment for goods specified in ML5.a. or ML5.b.;

d. Field test or alignment equipment, specially designed for goods specified in ML5.a., ML5.b. or ML5.c.

ML10 "Aircraft", "lighter-than-air vehicles", "Unmanned Aerial Vehicles ("UAVs")", aero-engines and "aircraft" equipment, related goods and components as follows, specially designed or modified for military use:

a. Manned "aircraft" and "lighter-than-air vehicles" and specially designed components therefor;

d. Propulsion aero-engines and specially designed components therefor;

e. Airborne refuelling equipment specially designed or modified for any of the following, and specially designed components therefor:

1. "Aircraft" specified in ML10.a.; or

2. Unmanned "aircraft" specified in ML10.c.;

f. 'Ground equipment' specially designed for "aircraft" specified by ML10.a. or aero-engines specified in ML10.d.;

g. Aircrew life support equipment, aircrew safety equipment and other devices for emergency escape, not specified in ML10.a., designed for "aircraft" specified in ML10.a.;
​

h. Parachutes, paragliders and related equipment, as follows, and specially designed components therefor

1. Parachutes, other than those which form part of items controlled elsewhere in this Schedule;

2. Paragliders;

3. Equipment specially designed for high altitude parachutists;

​

ML11 Electronic equipment, "spacecraft" and components, not specified elsewhere in this Schedule, as follows:

a. Electronic equipment specially designed or modified for military use and specially designed components therefor;

b. Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS) jamming equipment and specially designed components therefor;

c. "Spacecraft" specially designed or modified for military use, and “spacecraft” components specially designed for military use.

ML14 Specialised equipment for military training or for simulating military scenarios, simulators specially designed for training in the "use" of any firearm or weapon specified in ML1 or ML2, and specially designed components and accessories therefor.

​

ML15 Imaging or countermeasure equipment, as follows, specially designed for military use, and specially designed components and accessories therefor:

a. Recorders and image processing equipment;

b. Cameras, photographic equipment and film processing equipment;

c. Image intensifier equipment;

d. Infrared or thermal imaging equipment;

e. Imaging radar sensor equipment;

f. Countermeasure or counter-countermeasure equipment for the equipment specified in ML15.a. to ML15.e.

ML16 Forgings, castings and other unfinished goods, specially designed for any of the "goods" specified in ML1 to ML4, ML6, ML9, ML10, ML12 or ML19.

ML17 Miscellaneous goods, material and "libraries", as follows, and specially designed components therefor:​

c. Fittings, coatings and treatments for signature suppression, specially designed for military use;

f. "Libraries" specially designed or modified for military use with systems, equipment or components specified in this Schedule;

h. Goods and material, coated, treated or prepared to provide signature suppression, specially designed for military use, other than those controlled elsewhere in this Schedule;

l. ISO intermodal containers or demountable vehicle bodies (i.e., swap bodies), specially designed or modified for military use;

n. Test models specially designed for the "development" of goods specified in ML4, ML6, ML9 or ML10;

​

ML18 Production equipment and components, as follows:

a. Specially designed or modified production equipment for the "production" of goods specified in this Schedule, and specially designed components therefor;

b. Specially designed environmental test facilities and specially designed equipment therefor, for the certification, qualification or testing of goods specified in this Schedule.

ML21 "Software" as follows:

a. "Software" specially designed or modified for any of the following:

1. "Development", "production", operation or maintenance of equipment specified in this Schedule;

2. "Development" or "production" of materials specified in this Schedule; or

3. "Development", "production", operation or maintenance of "software" specified in this Schedule;
​

b. Specific "software", other than that specified in ML21.a., as follows:

1. "Software" that is both specially designed for military use and specially designed for modelling, simulating or evaluating military weapons systems;

2. "Software" that is both specially designed for military use and specially designed for modelling or simulating military operational scenarios;

3. "Software" for determining the effects of conventional, nuclear, chemical or biological weapons;

4. "Software" that is both specially designed for military use and specially designed for Command, Communications, Control and Intelligence (C3I) applications or Command, Communications, Control, Computer and Intelligence (C4I) applications;

5. "Software" for military offensive cyber operations

c. "Software" not specified in ML21.a. or ML21.b., specially designed or modified to enable equipment not specified in this Schedule to perform the military functions of equipment specified in this Schedule;

d. Other "software" specially designed or modified for military use.

ML22 "Technology" as follows:

a. "Technology" other than "technology" specified in ML22.b., which is "required" for the "development", "production", operation, installation, maintenance (checking), repair, overhaul or refurbishing of goods or "software", specified in this Schedule;



​

b. "Technology" as follows:

1. "Technology" "required" for the design of, the assembly of components into, and the operation, maintenance and repair of complete production installations for goods specified in this Schedule, even if the components of such production installations are not specified;

 

[Yasar_TR]

Inside sources said that the agreement does not include the purchase of engines. Hopes are left to another spring, people.

But I'm still waiting for an answer from TAI. It will become clear soon.

Having read the whole document, my understanding is such that, it includes every technology related to KAAN, including propulsion systems.

But the document actually is related to UK companies. It tells UK companies they are free to transfer and release all related technology with respect to KAAN freely to Turkish companies.
They can not, however transfer technology to third party countries using the Turkish companies. So it is restricting UK companies.
So if we were to give an example; RR could transfer all necessary tech to Kale to produce an engine together. Also if RR seemed it relevant, could re-export this technology only back to UK. Not to another country, say to Qatar !

The restrictions are for UK companies’ benefit. It does not encompass Turkish companies directly.

Edit: There is however one interesting point; UK companies can not utilise technologies gained in the process of developing KAAN, to be used elsewhere apart from U.K. In other words say, RR stumbled up on a new tech whilst developing an engine with KALE; it can only transfer that technology back to UK. It can’t transfer it to US or Japan or Germany.

 

[Siper>MMU]

From ASELSAN. Plenty of sub-systems visible.

Thx to @Radonsider for noticing these initially.

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https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1721961864727232956?s=20

IRIS-300 seems a little too small for a DAS (Distributed Aperture System, F-35) like system. I hope it's not an UV (ultraviolet) tube based MWS(Missile Warning System). I doubt but we may see a discrete DAS and MWS system.

 

[TR_123456]

IRIS-300 seems a little too small for a DAS like system. I hope it's not an UV tube based MWS. I doubt but we may see a discrete DAS and MWS system.


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It would be helpful if you added meaning to the letters so that people like myself(amateurs) know what it means.

DAS(.........)
MWS(........)

 

[Radonsider]

IRIS-300 seems a little too small for a DAS like system. I hope it's not an UV tube based MWS. I doubt but we may see a discrete DAS and MWS system.


View attachment 62733

It is IR based, having no scale doesn't help with the image

 

[Afif]

It would be helpful if you added meaning to the letters so that people like myself(amateurs) know what it means.

DAS(.........)
MWS(........)

DAS- Distributed Aperture System. (on F-35)

MWS- Missile Warning System.

 

[Siper>MMU]

It is IR based, having no scale doesn't help with the image

I also remember it being IR based but the image is confusing. DAS(Distributed Aperture System) has 640x480p cooled MWIR/LWIR (Mid/Long wave infrared) dual mode detectors for now(they will be upgraded to 1024p ones in Block 4). Cooler assembly takes so much space alone, with the electronics taken into account whole system becomes quite big like DAS. There are a couple possibilities.
1) The illustration may be misleading,
2) We may not get a sensor as capable as current DAS. Maybe with an uncooled sensor or a lower resolution MWIR/LWIR single mod sensor. But I doubt it since ASELSAN is already developing a dual mode MWIR/LWIR detector kit for KAAN.
3)I think this is the most possible one. We will see a IR based only MWS(Missile warning system) capable sensor for Block 0/1 and get a upgraded true DAS system with further blocks.

 

[Radonsider]

I also remember it being IR based but the image is confusing. DAS has 640x480p cooled MWIR/LWIR dual mode detectors for now(they will be upgraded to 1024p ones in Block 4). Cooler assembly takes so much space alone, with the electronics taken into account whole system becomes quite big like DAS. There are a couple possibilities.
1) The illustration may be misleading,
2) We may not get a sensor as capable as current DAS. Maybe with an uncooled sensor or a lower resolution MWIR/LWIR single mod sensor. But I doubt it since ASELSAN is already developing a dual mode MWIR/LWIR detector kit for KAAN.
3)I think this is the most possible one. We will see a IR based only MWS capable sensor for Block 0/1 and get a upgraded true DAS system with further blocks.

It is specified as an IR MWS and imaging system, unlike İris-100 which is just "MWS"

 

[moz68k]

From the F-16 Forum:

"[...] Key attributes are dual-band MWIR (3–5 mm) and LWIR (8–10 mm) using a 640x512 FPA. Each sensor measures ~7x5x4in (18x13x10cm = 2400cm³), weighs ~9lb (4kg) and consumes less than 20W [...]"

So the DAS sensors units aren't that large, and this source is quite old. It might be that IRIS-300 is deeper than it is wider.

Optical assembly:

DAS unit:

Front-facing DAS (right, next to MADL) integrated below canopy, notice the added hump:

 

[Afif]

A good presentation of what DAS is and what it can do. (Here it says DAS is HD)

 

[moz68k]

A good presentation of what DAS is and what it can do. (Here it says DAS is HD)

Yeah HD is marketing speak in that context, current DAS is less than 1MP (he might mean that the stitched image is HD, which is true). At 41 seconds, you can see the Northrop rep holding a mockup unit. Wide and tall but not that deep. Plus, we really don't know the scale of IRIS-300.

 

[Afif]

Yeah HD is marketing speak in that context, current DAS is less than 1MP (he might mean that the stitched image is HD, which is true).

Well, this is actually old DAS from NG.
Afaik, not in the production anymore.

New EODAS from RTX has been delivered to Lockheed Martin to be integrated with Lot 15-17.


"The sensors use two key components from across RTX: the strained layer super lattice (SLS) detector material (from commercial foundries) is processed using the same revolutionary manufacturing techniques to develop the GaN semiconductors in Andover, Massachusetts, which power Raytheon radars such as Patriot, SPY-6, and LTAMDS. The EODAS SLS detector material is then integrated into focal plane arrays by engineers at Raytheon Vision Systems in Goleta, California. These advancements, coupled with digital pixel technology and a digital read-out integrated circuit, give pilots a quick, high-definition picture of everything around them, culminating in a more capable missile detection system."

Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System | Raytheon - RTX https://www.rtx.com/raytheon/what-we-do/air/eodas


No definite specs yet. (That I know of)
But seems new EODAS from RTX is significantly improved.