TR Air Defence Programs

[Siper>MMU]

Turkey test-fires air defense missile Siper - Türkiye News

Turkey successfully test-fired long-range indigenous air defense missile Siper, a top defense official said on Nov. 6.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

I've noticed that several of the news outlets are giving misleading information. They're calling the missile launched Siper, and I've read you guys input on it as well. So question is going to be, is Siper the final missiles name or is Siper the name a group of long range missiles.

I believe it'll be the name of the final missile, so why did the others get their names revamped ?

Also the missile is quite slim as pointed out, if it's 250mm and not very long/tall the estimated range I've seen in the thread puts it around 70-100 km, and if I didn't get it wrong it's with the small booster shown right ?

@Cabatli_53 said (I think it was him) something about the range being impressive comparable with it's size, which I really hope is true. But the question is then what's the speed of the missile ?

Have we managed to create a more fuel efficient booster/rocket engine and how much does it increase the range. Of course I hope that we've made better rocket engine which will mean smaller and slimmer missiles will have 20-30% longer range, but I'm not sure if it's a dream atm

This missile was without any guidance systems and other systems. It flew about 80 kilometers and 20km in altitude(not confirmed) . This is not the final product, this missiles purpose was to test the maximum range they can achieve with that missile. Booster is a 20cm longer variant of Atmaca booster (not confirmed). Further prototypes will likely have a TVC enabled longer booster.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Let's refresh our memory. Ismail Demir said the following in the TRT News.

“We will create an intercepting range of 70-100 km until the Siper. We will go above this with the Siper system. Later, we will have an air defense system at the S-400 level.”

“We are heading towards a domestic air defense system of the S-400 setting, we have set a target of 5 years in front of us.”


Possibly 70-100km range missiles were also included in the scope of the Siper system and the Blk-1 missile will now provide protection within the 70km range. In a very short time, I guess we will be able to see another very similar missile exceeding 100km in similar altitude level with a modified booster. Those are intermediate products, so instead of choosing the expensive way, Roketsan has used an available booster over the existing Hisar-Rf and shortened the development time but the target missile-Siper will be different. In 2023, a missile that we used to call only the "Siper" before but now we will call it with its block name, will be ready to intercept at 150km and above ranges and will have a limited ballistic missile interception capability and I think this missile will be revealed without a booster.

The schedule set for the "S400 caliber missile" is 2025/2026. We don't know the scope of this missile but my guess is that we can see a more capable system as a mission profile than the S400. Likely a booster version of the modified Siper(150+km) like SM-2, to be integrated on naval platforms too, capable of inter-atmospheric interception for 250-300km, and capable of intercepting ballistic missiles up to 150km altitude. I will be eagerly awaiting developments.

 

[Turko]

İ-class will have 32cell VLS, which combination of Siper and Hisar O/A or G40 should be?

16 Siper +16 Hisar O?

Theres no need to replace AntiShipMissiles with Sipers.

Just load 32 Hisar into MDAS for enemy fighters, add two side 2 Levent RAM launcher for cruise missiles and helicopters.

 

[Siper>MMU]

İ-class will have 32cell VLS, which combination of Siper and Hisar O/A or G40 should be?

16 Siper +16 Hisar O?

It is updated to 32 cells ???

 

[Turko]

It is updated to 32 cells ???

Ohh sorry . The plan was 16 absolutely.

So importance of RAMs are increasing.

MDAS full of 16 Hisar u/Sipers.

2 Levent launchers with Gökdeniz missiles.

Would it be ridiculous?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

This missile was without any guidance systems and other systems. It flew about 80 kilometers and 20km in altitude. This is not the final product, this missiles purpose was to test the maximum range they can achieve with that missile (not booster). Booster is a 20cm longer variant of Atmaca booster. Further prototypes will likely have a TVC enabled longer booster.

We would be happy if you share where you got these range and size details.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456981447118577672

 

[Khagan1923]

We can guess how future Block might look by looking at Barak-8. A slimmer longer Booster should be expected in the future with longer range available (100km+).

 

[Combat-Master]

If an identical booster to Atmaca is used; note not identical perspectives so take what you will from it

 

[Siper>MMU]

We would be happy if you share where you got these range and size details.

Many of them are not confirmed. Range target was 70km+ but as I heard it flew like 80km.

 

[MakinAci]

Can someone compare length of Hisar O with this Siper ?! For me it looks small for long range SAM 0.5 meter longer than Hisar but pehaps i am wrong

If "it has 20cm longer booster than Atmaca" rumour is true. I think Atmaca's booster has 90cm length so Siper's booster has 110 cm length with my calculation Siper B1 has ~7 meter length.

 

[Khagan1923]

If it is the Atmaca booster that would mean Siper-B1 is slimmer than Atmaca. Does anyone have any official info on Atmacas Diameter? Because from the pictures it at least seems to be considerably slimmer than the booster which seems to fit the diameter of Atmaca.

 

[dustdevil]

If "it has 20cm longer booster than Atmaca" rumour is true. I think Atmaca's booster has 90cm length so Siper's booster has 110 cm length with my calculation Siper B1 has ~8 meter length. View attachment 35158

You meant 690cm, right? 110+580=690 cm according to your notes. Above this length, it would not be good for VLS.

For Mk41 VLS, for reference:

Self Defense 530 cm
Tactical 680 cm
Strike 770 cm

 

[MakinAci]

You meant 690cm, right? 110+580=690 cm according to your notes. Above this length, it would not be good for VLS.

For Mk41 VLS, for reference:

Self Defense 530 cm
Tactical 680 cm
Strike 770 cm

Oh sorry, my fault it should be 690 cm. In VLS it will probably use without the booster(for stacking quad/dual pack) so 580 cm should suitable for MDAS.

 

[Turko]

Taiwan navy's Catamaran Corvettes will use fixed horizontal launchers for TC2N SAM.

İ don't know still sacrifing anti-ship capability seems to me unnecessary.

 

[MakinAci]

If it is the Atmaca booster that would mean Siper-B1 is slimmer than Atmaca. Does anyone have any official info on Atmacas Diameter? Because from the pictures it at least seems to be considerably slimmer than the booster which seems to fit the diameter of Atmaca.

Atmaca's booster's diameter is 350mm so Siper-B1 is slimmer than Atmaca. Looks like Siper-B1 has 200-250mm diameter.

 

[Lonewolf]

Slight correction , a barak 8 or barak m equivalent has been upgraded without a booster for 100 km range .

And length is mere 4.5 meter , so range for your recent tested missile (whatever it's name is , no clarity on name yet ) should be longer ranged

View attachment 35153



View attachment 35154

We can guess how future Block might look by looking at Barak-8. A slimmer longer Booster should be expected in the future with longer range available (100km+).

 

[Anmdt]

Many of them are not confirmed. Range target was 70km+ but as I heard it flew like 80km.

The things we don't know so far:

-What is the booster used for, just to imitate a booster stage? just to carry missile over the test area for safety? or because the canister was known to be compatible with it (like maybe using Atmaca's canister)?

-Whether the second stage is fired or it was solely the first stage to test NEZ of the missile, thus 70-80 km was reached at a certain altitude without firing the second stage?

-Whether the seeker was active, the seeker seems to be legit from color scheme?

All we know this the second time they have launched Siper, renamed Hisar-U as Block-I and the missile called Siper earlier had 2 band seeker (revealed by Aselsan's roadmap) and what was called Siper earlier was oriented for LR-SAM needs (150 km).

So probably Siper Block I won't have a booster (80-100 km) , Block - II will have booster and dual band seeker (100-130 km) and Block III will be ready by 2025-2026 with dual band seeker + IIR seeker (maybe), 150+ km range, Block III will definitely have a larger body and also pave the way for the BMD missile. Note the navy doesn't care much about the weight of missile as long as it propels itself and fits into the VLS, unlike the missiles used on land which has a limited weight to fit on the chasis and carriage capacity. Thus i am thinking Block III will be what navy wants.

If "it has 20cm longer booster than Atmaca" rumour is true. I think Atmaca's booster has 90cm length so Siper's booster has 110 cm length with my calculation Siper B1 has ~8 meter length. View attachment 35158

I somehow think it will be about 570-620 with booster and 480-530 without the booster.

 

[Siper>MMU]

-What is the booster used for, just to imitate a booster stage? just to carry missile over the test area for safety? or because the canister was known to be compatible with it (like maybe using Atmaca's canister)?

I guess that Atmaca booster was for testing booster separation mechanisms.

-Whether the seeker was active, the seeker seems to be legit from color scheme?

Nope. Seeker was not live. Launch was just for testing the missiles kinematics.

So probably Siper Block I won't have a booster (80-100 km) , Block - II will have booster and dual band seeker (100-130 km) and Block III will be ready by 2025-2026 with dual band seeker + IIR seeker (maybe), 150+ km range, Block III will definitely have a larger body and also pave the way for the BMD missile. Note the navy doesn't care much about the weight of missile as long as it propels itself and fits into the VLS, unlike the missiles used on land which has a limited weight to fit on the chasis and carriage capacity. Thus i am thinking Block III will be what navy wants.

This missile is the old Hisar-U aka 100km range and 20km altitude gap filler missile mentioned before. It will be the part of Siper system. Siper will host many different missiles and will be able to launch all Hisar missiles. Siper Block 1 will enter service before the "true Siper or Block 2/3" which will have a single part SM-2 like body.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Missiles ranges not only related boosters or rocket fuels, Range of active radar seeker, sizes of battery, datalink array etc.

İf we put a very less ranged active radar seeker to long ranged missile its performance can be bad.