TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Fuzuli NL]

We had to use this chance and purchase some more CH-47s.

I would've liked to order a couple of C-17s.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I would've liked to order a couple of C-17s.

The US does not produce the C-17 anymore. Spain is canceling the last 13 A400M that was destined for them, Turkiye should procure them.

 

[dBSPL]

The current Greenville's Viper production capacity for 2024 is 1.6 aircraft per month. From next year onwards, 4 aircraft per month, 48 per year. Current block-70 order book: Bahrain 16, Morocco 24, Taiwan 66, Bulgaria 16, Slovakia 14, Jordan 12, Turkiye 40. Total 188 jets.

If we will be in the latest lot and there are no other options in between, TAF jets could start rolling out from the line in late 2027 or early 2028. I hope the integration of the V-modernization kits will take place within TAI. Thus, we can complete the modernization of F-16 fleets before 2030.

 

[Merzifonlu]

IMO USA haven't made any sales yet, for now.

If the sale goes through (I won't believe it until I receive the equipment, by the way), I think it would be good for two reasons: i) Maintenance of the existing F-16 fleet would no longer be a problem. ii) We will gain time until we can produce domestic air-to-air missiles in significant quantities.

Other than continuing to produce indigenous air-to-air missiles, IMO there are two additional things we need to do very urgently:
a) We must put the Murad AESA radar into mass production as soon as possible.
b) As soon as 3-5 Hürjet units (they do not need to be armed) enter the inventory, we should establish a test fleet to study the "Hürjet, Capable of Operating Drones+KE+Anka-3" concept.

Putting domestic turbofan engines into mass production comes right after these. That's also priority, of course.

 

[2033]

IMO USA haven't made any sales yet, for now.

If the sale goes through (I won't believe it until I receive the equipment, by the way), I think it would be good for two reasons: i) Maintenance of the existing F-16 fleet would no longer be a problem. ii) We will gain time until we can produce domestic air-to-air missiles in significant quantities.

Other than continuing to produce indigenous air-to-air missiles, IMO there are two additional things we need to do very urgently:
a) We must put the Murad AESA radar into mass production as soon as possible.
b) As soon as 3-5 Hürjet units (they do not need to be armed) enter the inventory, we should establish a test fleet to study the "Hürjet, Capable of Operating Drones+KE+Anka-3" concept.

Putting domestic turbofan engines into mass production comes right after these. That's also priority, of course.

I don't believe they will sell to us. They found an opportunity to humiliate us. They will give F-35 to Greece and not even give us F-16.

They will not give the Kaan engine either. Kaan will not enter the inventory before 2040.

All we can do is EF2000.

 

[DBdev]

Let’s elaborate on your rough calculations:
According to official US defence sources the cost of Greece’s 123 plane upgrade kit will cost them 2.4 billion dollars. This includes 125 Aesa radars and 123 kits of avionics etc.

Government of Greece – Upgrade of F-16 Aircraft to F-16 Block V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

That means Greeks are paying just under 20 million dollars per kit. I can’t see us paying a great deal more than that. So for the 79 kits, it totals 1.55 billion dollars.

Regarding the F16 V70 planes themselves; there are various quotes made by LM:
Slovakia has been offered 14 planes for 800million. That is 57 million a piece.
For Colombia they have offered 108 million dollars a piece for 24 planes and 133 million dollars a piece for 12 planes. However these include variety of different munitions.
Bulgaria is contemplating to buy 8 F16 planes for 1.3 billion. That means 162 million a piece.
Below site quotes f16v70 price to be 63million a piece

Top 10 most expensive fighter jets in 2024

Explore the top 10 list featuring high-tech aircraft with the highest price tags in today's aviation market. Discover the most expensive fighter jets of 2024.

www.aerotime.aero

As Turkey will want to produce these aircrafts and their engines in house at Tusas and TEI, I can’t see us paying more than Slovakian planes.
So that makes 2.4 billion for the 40 planes.
Regarding 600 AAMs:
If we are thinking of buying the long range AIM 120 D version (Since we have Gokdogan in production it is only apt to think that we will go for the Aim 120D) : UK ordered 200 of them for 650 million dollars. Making it 3.25 million a piece. So for 600 missiles it would total 1.95 billion dollars.
Regarding the 800 Precision Guided Munition :
It s difficult to guess what we would be buying from US, since we have so many different versions of this type of munition in our inventory. The only munition that makes sense is something like an AGM-88G HARM as Akbaba is still in development stage (Since Greeks have recently ordered the E version) at a price of nearly 1 million a piece making 0.8 billion.

So in total the logical payable cost of this order should be no more than 6 billion dollars. 20 billion dollars is outrageously high and in explicable.

Anybody has any ideas how this 6 billion turned into 23 billion despite basically the same items? Why the hell did we agree to this rip off?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I respect all views but I dont approve of those who are spreading nonstop fear and panic with worst case scenarios.

What Turkiye is doing now is to increase deterrence and discourage adversaries with intermediate solutions. We do not aim to buy Eurofighter T4/5/6 or F16 Block70/90/100 and brag about them for future homeland protection but regional adversaries don't have any other alternative than purchasing them even if they swim in the dept ocean. Think in the perception of other side for once to see who has the battle-readiness and menthal superiority. Imagine cost of attacking a country of 85 million with 40 F35s (2030+), 24 Rafale and 84 F16Vs against a fleet of 315 aircraft with AESA and thousands of BVR missiles until KAAN arrives?

That is why these purchases are only an interim solution because our real target is much bigger than what is seen and will have a deterrent that enemy cant even imagine but in an environment where countries in all direction are fighting with eqchother and everyone is talking about WW3, we only need TIME. 40 F16 and 40 Eurofighters will provide us with this necessary time. Within this time, majority of 857 ongoing projects qorth almost 90 billion $ will be completed, additional production facility investments will be completed and war-time production activities will be carried out without stopping. At the same time, ongoing investments in excellent test centers will be completed and KAAN will be turned into a real war machine with its advanced sensors and fusion center. In the partnerships established for turbofan engine projects, prototypes will be produced and tested with the most advanced technologies. Anka and Kizilelma will also evolve and make a name for themselves in the air with the contributions of AI and autonomous features. We will witness some of these fighter drones reaching supersonic speeds and firing BVR missiles.

 

[Nutuk]

The 23bln is a max value and it is good for us.

example: it gives ok for 900 AIM-120 missiles. Do we order 900 missiles at once? No we probably will order in batches of 150, but 900 have already been OK'd so for the future whether we buy them or not it already passed the congress approval

I already repeated many times, IMHO we should not even think about buying 40 new F16's, take the upgrade kits and upgrade our F16's in high tempo. Stop fussing around.

 

[Huelague]

Wow such a brilliant policy. First got kicked out of f35 program and buy 23 billion dollars worth of us made weaponry. Make Greece f35 owner. This was impossible with previous governments (aka “old Turkey “)
And if we are buying this much AA and AG ammunitions. Where will we use Goktug, Atmaca blah blah ?

Be cool. Sooner or later, all NATO members will have F-35 fighter jets, by USA.

 

[Huelague]

TÜRKIYE – F-16 AIRCRAFT ACQUISITION AND MODERNIZATION​

The Republic of Türkiye has requested to buy 40 new F-16 aircraft and to modernize 79 existing F-16 aircraft to V-Configuration.

The request includes:

• thirty-two (32) F-16 C Block 70 aircraft; eight (8) F-16 D Block 70 aircraft;
• forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares);
• one hundred forty-nine (149) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred forty-nine (149) AN/APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred sixty-nine (169) Modular Mission Computers (MMC) 7000AHC (or available mission computer) (40 installed, 10 spares, 119 for modernization program (79 installed, 40 spares));
• one hundred fifty nine (159) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS) Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGI) with Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) or M-Code capability and Precise Positioning Service (PPS) (40 installed, 8 spares, 111 for modernization program (79 installed, 32 spares));
• one hundred sixty-eight (168) Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems (40 installed, 10 spares, 118 for modernization program (79 installed, 39 spares));
• eight hundred fifty-eight (858) LAU-129 guided missile launchers;
• forty-four (44) M61 Vulcan cannons (40 installed, 4 spares);
• sixteen (16) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP);
• one hundred fifty-one (151) Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS-JTRS) (40 installed and 4 ground terminals, 8 spares, and 99 for modernization program (79 installed and 4 ground terminals, 16 spares));
• nine hundred fifty-two (952) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-8 or equivalent missiles;
• ninety six (96) AMRAAM guidance sections;
• eight hundred sixty-four (864) GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bombs Increment 1 (SDB-1);
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 guided test vehicles;
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 practice bombs;
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM);
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missiles (AARGM);
• ten (10) AARGM Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM);
• eleven (11) AARGM control sections;
• twelve (12) AARGM guidance sections;
• four hundred one (401) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder missiles;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs);
• forty (40) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder tactical guidance units;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder CATM guidance units;
• twelve (12) MK82 Inert Filled general purpose bombs;
• eight hundred fifty (850) Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) KMU-556 tail kits for GBU-31;
• two hundred (200) JDAM KMU-557 tail kits for GBU-31v3;
• three hundred eighty-four (384) JDAM KMU-559 tail kits for GBU-32;
• three (3) JDAM KMU-572 tail kits for GBU-38 or Laser JDAM GBU-54;
• one thousand fifty (1,050) FMU-152 fuzes. Also included are AMRAAM CATMs;
• AIM-9X Sidewinder training missiles and Active Optical Target Detectors (AOTD);
• HARM control sections, rocket motors, and warhead spares;
• FMU-139 Joint Programmable Fuzes;
• DSU-38 Laser Guidance Sets for GBU-54;
• missile containers;
• AN/ARC-238 radios;
• AN/APX-127 or equivalent Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Combined Interrogator Transponders (CIT) with mode 5;
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) II or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tracker (HObIT) helmet mounted displays;
• Infrared Search and Track (IRST) pods;
• AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS);
• KY-58 and KIV-78 cryptographic devices;
• Simple Key Loaders (SKLs);
• additional secure communications, precision navigation, and cryptographic equipment;
• Flight Mission Planning Systems (FMPS);
• Remote Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER) 6i/6Sis;
• Tactical Network ROVER kits, and STINGER Multi Bi-Directional (MBI) antennas;
• SNIPER pod pylons;
• impulse cartridges, chaff, flares, and ammunition; bomb components and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE);
• Rackmount Improved Avionics Intermediate Shop (RIAIS);
• Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD);
• Triple Missile Launcher Adapters (TMLA);
• aircraft, avionics, and weapons integration, test support, and equipment; major modernization upgrade kits for F-16 Block 40 and Block 50+ aircraft and Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) modifications;
• aircraft and engine repair and refurbishment after maintenance;
• engine and aircraft spare and repair parts, consumables, and accessories and repair and return support;
• aircraft, engine, ground, and pilot support equipment;
• Classified/Unclassified Computer Program Identification Number (CPIN) systems;
• electronic warfare database support;
• pylons, launcher adaptors, weapon interfaces, bomb and ejection racks, conformal fuel tanks, and travel pods;
• precision measurement equipment laboratory and calibration support;
• Classified/Unclassified software and software support;
• Classified/Unclassified publications, manuals, and technical documentation;
• maps and mapping data;
• facilities and construction support;
• simulators and training devices;
• personnel training and training equipment;
• U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, studies and surveys;
• and other related elements of logistical and program support.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

 

[Sanchez]

They try to stop

They aren't. We asked for these, and likely few others they didn't want to sell us so they're not in here.

They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

When they really want to fuck with our development, they have much bigger options that would stop most of our development projects on its tracks. Thankfully they haven't yet done most of those.

I fear people are not really getting this as it is happening. We don't have Kaan, Hürjet, or Özgür without US. They hold all the cards. They did so from the beginning. We will take this shit deal, and be very happy with it so that we can be really free 20 years later, not today. And in the meanwhile we will have to come up with ways to survive the next 20 years being surrounded by hounds on all sides.

Really hoping EF2000 purchase is also on the horizon.

 

[Spitfire9]

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

If you can make your own weapons, why buy them? The US, UK, France, Germany, Italy et al can make a lot of weapons but import many weapons they could make themselves.

The US has invested hundreds of billions of US dollars in R&D (perhaps many trillions) to become supreme in weapons development. I do not think that the US wants to share that with Turkiye to help it develop its weapons industry (my opinion).

You say that the US is trying to stop Turkish defence industry development and production. How is the US doing that?

 

[Spitfire9]

Really hoping EF2000 purchase is also on the horizon.

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

 

[Oublious]

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

Not exactly, you can not put your own weapons like that. They are changing missioncomputer you will need to rewrite your software and calibration and that will take time. Untill that time what will your VIPERS use?

 

[Oublious]

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

talk with the germanzzzz.

 

[TheInsider]

Hüseyin Fazla calculated the cost of the quoted items in the F-16 package. It seems total cost should be no higher than 7 billion. DSMC notice should be no higher than 15 billion something doesn't add up.

40 adet F-16 40x63 milyon USD = 2 milyar 520 milyon USD​

79 adet F-16 SLEP kiti 79x63/4 (15,75 milyon USD) = 1 milyar 244,25 milyon USD​

48 adet F110-GE-129D motoru 48x4 milyon USD = 192 milyon USD​

149 adet AESA radarı 149x5 milyon USD = 745 milyon USD​

168 adet EH paketi 168x3 milyon USD = 504 milyon USD​

952 adet AMRAAM C-8 952x1 milyon USD = 952 milyon USD​

96 adet AMRAAM güdüm kiti 96x250 bin USD= 24 milyon USD​

864 adet GBU-39 864x40 bin USD = 34,56 milyon USD​

96 adet AGM-88B HARM 96x284 bin USD = 27,264 milyon USD​

96 adet AGM-88E AARGM 96x870 bin USD = 83,520 milyon USD​

401 adet AIM-9X Blok II 401x381 bin USD = 152,781 milyon USD​

12 adet AIM-9X CATM 12x209 bin USD = 2,508 milyon USD​

1434 adet JDAM kiti 1434x36 bin USD = 51,624 milyon USD​

1.050 adet FMU-152 tapa 1050x2.300 USD = 2,415 milyon USD​

Modernizasyon fabrika tool’ları Tahmini 150 milyon USD​

​

Toplam Öngörülen Maliyet 6 milyar 687 milyon USD​

 

[boredaf]

Hüseyin Fazla calculated the cost of the quoted items in the F-16 package. It seems total cost should be no higher than 7 billion. DSMC notice should be no higher than 15 billion something doesn't add up.

Did he post where he got the prices? I haven't checked but I do know that not all prices are in the public domain and getting them from other purchases isn't really reliable as US (and every other country that sells weapons including us) adjust their prices from country to country, so, we would likely get a steeper price.

For example, Germany bought 969 AMRAAM C-8 and training and support stuff for those for 2.9 billion dollars, almost 3 times the amount mentioned there.

 

[godel44]

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

Actually, Germany selling Eurofighters just got a lot more likely now that Americans are selling. There was no logical reason for denying the sale anyway. But it might be a bit overkill for us as the Viper/Ozgur numbers already present quite a sizeable investment in the 4th gen planes.

 

[MeACuLpA]

I am pretty sure everyone would die to see Murad vs Captor-e ecrs mk2 and SABR

 

[wolveray1]

Turkiye should buy more upgrade kits and cancel buying new F16's, their delivery time is just not worth it. Buy maybe some AA missiles and keep the cost at minimum

Tutkey should just cancel it and spend more on local ozgur f16 upgrading program instead of begging it.
Tbh,its embarassing or just bought from China.
At least you are not looking like beggars....
If you cancel it at least people will look at Turkey with some respect...