TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Yasar_TR

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There's no way TS1400 core could produce 6000lb of thrust. Where such notions come from, I don't understand. Look into the Garrett F109 which also shares similar core to TS1400.
View attachment 35830
This Garrett engine is tiny compared to ts1400. Also it is a high bypass turbofan. (5:1). ( As an example; Ukranian engine AI222 is low bypass with AB has a bypass ratio of 1.19:1)
Totally different.
20inches diameter contains the fan which has to be big to create the high bypass value and thrust needed As most of the thrust is generated by the fan. Not the jet turbine, which will be very small!
Below is the excerpt taken from defenceturkey magazine:

quote:
“Thus, the core technology of the TS1400 Engine shall also form the basis for the indigenous turbofan engine (in 8,500lbf to 9,500lbf thrust class) needed for the HURJET New Generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) & the Light Attack Aircraft Development Project, and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under the TEDP.”
unquote.

 
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Profchaos

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There's no way TS1400 core could produce 6000lb of thrust. Where such notions come from, I don't understand. Look into the Garrett F109 which also shares similar core to TS1400.
View attachment 35830
It literally says f109 has 5:1 bypass ratio. When you look at the AI 322f it has a similar diameter around 62 cm and able to produce up to 5500 lbf also it has 1.2:1 bypass ratio.

edit: since tei has single cristal blade tech.i expect a lot better specs compared to AI 322f from a tei engine with similar dimentions.ukrainian engine has 1470 K max turbine inlet temperature and tei can go a lot higher temps with SCB’s. This would result with higher thermal efficiency and more thrust.
 
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Combat-Master

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This Garrett engine is tiny compared to ts1400. Also it is a high bypass turbofan. (5:1). ( As an example; Ukranian engine AI222 is low bypass with AB has a bypass ratio of 1.19:1)
Totally different.
20inches diameter contains the fan which has to be big to create the high bypass value and thrust needed As most of the thrust is generated by the fan. Not the jet turbine!
Below is the excerpt taken from defenceturkey magazine:

quote:
“Thus, the core technology of the TS1400 Engine shall also form the basis for the indigenous turbofan engine (in 8,500lbf to 9,500lbf thrust class) needed for the HURJET New Generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) & the Light Attack Aircraft Development Project, and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under the TEDP.”
unquote.


Ermm.. T-800 and LHTEC engines are based off Garett's F109 Core, buddy.

"The TS1400 is anticipated to be developed further with a multi-stage axial flow compressor and then a single-stage centrifugal compressor assembly to be able to evolve into a high-performance, low-thrust turbofan (TF) engine. "

That's no longer a TS1400 core.
 

Zafer

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It would be nice if TAI makes a twin engine delta fighter/bomber and a tanker with the expected TF-6000.
And Baykar makes the advanced MIUS with a single TF-6000.
 

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It would be nice if TAI makes a twin engine delta fighter/bomber and a tanker with the expected TF-6000.
And Baykar makes the advanced MIUS with a single TF-6000.
I think TAI should focus more on civilian products once they completed some of their projects.
 

Zafer

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I think TAI should focus more on civilian products once they completed some of their projects.
TAI is a solution partner making parts for multinational civilian projects already but they are not making whole products. They should probably attempt to make a passenger plane with 130 seats which can be modified for other uses too. Once I had a chance to approach Mr Kotil and I suggested him to make Flying Cars but he was skeptical saying there is no existing market for them.
 

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TAI is a solution partner making parts for multinational civilian projects already but they are not making whole products. They should probably attempt to make a passenger plane with 130 seats which can be modified for other uses too. Once I had a chance to approach Mr Kotil and I suggested him to make Flying Cars but he was skeptical saying there is no existing market for them.
With all due respect, he was right. Flying-cars are not real engineering projects but gimmicks. I for one believe that CEZERI is a waste of resources. First of all, it's not a flying car. By that definition a helicopter is also a flying-car. It's a manned drone. And they will never be viable in cities. They may have some use as a inter-city taxi but that's limited. Elon Musk has explained it perfectly. If you're curious, I suggest you to google his answer about the subject.

For the passenger plane, i hope they make it a reality. That's the kind of work i expect from TAI once their hands are free.
 
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Zafer

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With all due respect, he was right. Flying-cars are not real engineering projects but gimmicks. I for one believe that CEZERI is a waste of resources. First of all, it's not a flying car. It's a manned drone. And they will never be viable in cities. They may have some use as a inter-city taxi but that's limited. Elon Musk has explained it perfectly. If you're curious, i suggest you to google his answer about the subject.

For the passenger plane, i hope they make it a reality. That's the kind of work i expect from TAI once their hands are free.
I am a flying car researcher/developer.

Cezeri is a waste,
A flying Car is a practical term to mean a non helicopter VTOL, not necessarily one that can also drive.
There are multi-billion dollar companies that will start production in 2 years.
There are 5 top companies over a billion dollar market value, top one at $6.6 billion.
They will become a reality but not exactly as fast as people think, mainly because they insist on pure electric propulsion.

Both Boeing and Airbus are in the business and also Toyata, Hyundai, Embraer, and many other top brands are also in the field. Turkey is taking this too lightly, we will eat the dust if we keep being sluggish.
 

Rodeo

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I am a flying car researcher/developer.

Cezeri is a waste,
A flying Car is a practical term to mean a non helicopter VTOL, not necessarily one that can also drive.
There are multi-billion dollar companies that will start production in 2 years.
There are 5 top companies over a billion dollar market value, top one at $6.6 billion.
They will become a reality but not exactly as fast as people think, mainly because they insist on pure electric propulsion.

Both Boeing and Airbus are in the business and also Toyata, Hyundai, Embraer, and many other top brands are also in the field. Turkey is taking this too lightly, we will eat the dust if we keep being sluggish.
I know about the projects. There are multiple companies I'm following about the subject. Lilium is one of them, for instance. But the reasons I think they're doomed is more fundamental. There are two issues. One is safety, the other is noise. And I think this tweet from Elon Musk summarize it perfectly(the noise aspect).

"If you love drones above your house, you’ll really love vast numbers of “cars” flying over your head that are 1000 times bigger and noisier and blow away anything that isn’t nailed down when they land"

 
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Combat-Master

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BAYRAKTAR DİHA
diha (1).png


1637186228471.png
 

TheInsider

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Probably we heard the same things :) but i don't know if it is the same source.

TF-6000 is a new design. It is a low bypass turbofan engine. It will have at least 6000 lbs of dry thrust. It will have a multi-stage axial compressor. We will see something in 2023.
 
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Yasar_TR

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That's no longer a TS1400 core.
It is ts1400‘s “so called core” with all it’s guts renewed, changed in to an axial flow turbofan.
In all honesty they might as well redesign the whole engine from scratch. It will probably be easier.
Garrett 109 is a small high bypass 20inch diameter turbofan engine. (It’s turbine diameter must have been very small. Just check out the blades where the red coloured area is in below picture. They are tiny turbines compared with the 20inch fan at the front) .
This engine led to the development of a 500HP, 21inch diameter Garrett TPE331 turbo shaft engine. That led to Honeywell’s 26 inch diameter 1500HP TPF331 turbo shaft engine, which transformed in to Honeywell CTS-800 later on.
To say “using the core of” is not really suitable in either case.


1637187055630.jpeg

 

the

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This small UAV has nice stats.
Why isn't BaykarTech investing in Kamikaze Drones. I Think the DIHA could be converted to Kamikaze Drone with some tweaks.

Kalashnikov Kamikaze Drone for Reference

View attachment 35861
I believe Vestel are in the process of making a Kamikaze drone similar to the Israeli Harop called 'Kargi'.
However, I'm not sure on the level of progress that has been made so far.
 

Nilgiri

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Ibrahim Sunnetci had mentioned in one of his articles that the ts1400 core and body would yield a turbofan engine with a thrust level of 6000lbf dry and 9-10000lbf with AB. Size wise it would be quite a demanding case to make the said power level. But can be done by extending the length of the engine. (As in RR Adour)
Of course the innards of the ts1400 would have to be extensively altered to allow an axial flow compressor and turbine section as opposed to the radial flow of ts1400.
Also the dry thrust and the after burner thrust has to be made clear. If the quoted thrust is dry 6000lbf then we are talking about an engine with a power level of 9-10000lbf thrust.
Any jet propulsion engine has to be axial flow in order to create thrust. Some of the sections may be radial, to give better efficiency as radial flow improves heat propagation. But in essence a turbofan (or a turbo jet) is an axial flow gas turbine.

View attachment 35807

There seem to be some debate about where this number 6000 lbf comes from.

It can be approximated in basic way by looking at the helicopter intended (TAI 625)

The MTOW is given at about 6000 kg.

To (basic stationary) hover means about 60 kN of force required by the heli disc.

This disc will be powered by 2 TEI-1400 engines. (Or LHTEC if you want to convert that into its turbofan equivalent).

Essentially each one is responsible for about 30 kN of the discs thrust (using air).

30 kN corresponds to about 6700 lbf.

The actual thrust by the disc would be higher since you need a certain rate of climb capability (extra power wise) as well.

Factor that in and then factor in the (propulsive efficiency) losses associated by using a higher rpm fan instead of lower rpm heli-disc (and importantly the air flow velocities involved).....and I would imagine 6000 lbf is around the threshold achieved in this control volume.

This is of course a CV theoretical basic approach.

There are lot of challenges in the hot section (and these feedback to the compressor requirements too) when you are after jet stream velocity (for propulsion even with fan for better efficiency) instead of much more rpm-based transfer to a larger prop or disc.

This is why rpm-approach systems (that value efficiency instead of direct propulsive thrust) can do quite well with centrifugal compression in small volume...and the hot section requirements (regarding single crystal etc) are not so intense either.

For UAV turbofan engine (I assume why its brought up here without reading all posts), it is very worthwhile to look into (see what you can get out of the core from existing TS/TP).

It would need good material and flow analysis for hot section capability....and possibly changing set up of the hot section (I am not sure what TEI-1400 is going for here, if someone could tell me how many stages there are* etc....)

Weight of fan, augmented hot section and larger case etc would increase the weight substantially overall as well.

To estimate some rough objectives there (and what might be needed to done internally in core setup like changing a CFHP compressor stage to LP axial ones) needs TEI-1400 layout on it currently if available.

*Is TEI-1400 same as LHTEC layout ( 2CFHP, 2HPT, 2PT)?
 

Zafer

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I know about the projects. There are multiple companies I'm following about the subject. Lilium is one of them, for instance. But the reasons I think they're doomed is more fundamental. There are two issues. One is safety, the other is noise. And I think this tweet from Elon Musk summarize it perfectly(the noise aspect).

"If you love drones above your house, you’ll really love vast numbers of “cars” flying over your head that are 1000 times bigger and noisier and blow away anything that isn’t nailed down when they land"

He is so stupid.
 

Zafer

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I know about the projects. There are multiple companies I'm following about the subject. Lilium is one of them, for instance. But the reasons I think they're doomed is more fundamental. There are two issues. One is safety, the other is noise. And I think this tweet from Elon Musk summarize it perfectly(the noise aspect).

"If you love drones above your house, you’ll really love vast numbers of “cars” flying over your head that are 1000 times bigger and noisier and blow away anything that isn’t nailed down when they land"

Flying cars can follow designated flight paths and can keep a distance to houses.
Makers are working hard on reducing noise levels and they have already achieved great success and still looking to further their achievements.

Safety is about the design; not every flying machine is equal. Probably 97% of flying car designs will fail to make any sales as they don't have what it takes to be reliable and safe.
 

Yasar_TR

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There seem to be some debate about where this number 6000 lbf comes from.

It can be approximated in basic way by looking at the helicopter intended (TAI 625)

The MTOW is given at about 6000 kg.

To (basic stationary) hover means about 60 kN of force required by the heli disc.

This disc will be powered by 2 TEI-1400 engines. (Or LHTEC if you want to convert that into its turbofan equivalent).

Essentially each one is responsible for about 30 kN of the discs thrust (using air).

30 kN corresponds to about 6700 lbf.

The actual thrust by the disc would be higher since you need a certain rate of climb capability (extra power wise) as well.

Factor that in and then factor in the (propulsive efficiency) losses associated by using a higher rpm fan instead of lower rpm heli-disc (and importantly the air flow velocities involved).....and I would imagine 6000 lbf is around the threshold achieved in this control volume.

This is of course a CV theoretical basic approach.

There are lot of challenges in the hot section (and these feedback to the compressor requirements too) when you are after jet stream velocity (for propulsion even with fan for better efficiency) instead of much more rpm-based transfer to a larger prop or disc.

This is why rpm-approach systems (that value efficiency instead of direct propulsive thrust) can do quite well with centrifugal compression in small volume...and the hot section requirements (regarding single crystal etc) are not so intense either.

For UAV turbofan engine (I assume why its brought up here without reading all posts), it is very worthwhile to look into (see what you can get out of the core from existing TS/TP).

It would need good material and flow analysis for hot section capability....and possibly changing set up of the hot section (I am not sure what TEI-1400 is going for here, if someone could tell me how many stages there are* etc....)

Weight of fan, augmented hot section and larger case etc would increase the weight substantially overall as well.

To estimate some rough objectives there (and what might be needed to done internally in core setup like changing a CFHP compressor stage to LP axial ones) needs TEI-1400 layout on it currently if available.

*Is TEI-1400 same as LHTEC layout ( 2CFHP, 2HPT, 2PT)?
Lhtech-800 was the starting point of the engine.
According to TEI’s site, it has 2 stage radial compressor, reverse flow combustion chamber, 2 stage axial HP turbine section and a 2 stage axial power turbine.

1637223874380.png
 
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Anmdt

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This small UAV has nice stats.
Why isn't BaykarTech investing in Kamikaze Drones. I Think the DIHA could be converted to Kamikaze Drone with some tweaks.

Kalashnikov Kamikaze Drone for Reference

View attachment 35861
We need a 3rd or 4th company to focus on small UAVs including kamikazes, don't know how active Vestel's UAV division as it once used to be.
 
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