TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Bogeyman 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
8,398
Reactions
60 29,405
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Not at all!

How many EW installations does Turkiye have for instance? Will it be enough for a long frontline, like in the case of Ukraine - Russia? Nope! No any country has that amount of EW systems available in sufficient numbers.

Current FPV's are radio controlled and vulnerable against EW (if sufficiently available everywhere) but they are quickly evoluting towards autonomous AI. Even EW will not stop them soon in a few years

Electronic CounterMeasures (ECM)​


ECM is the active part of EW and is intended to disrupt the surveillance systems of the enemy, whether by radar or radio communications, and also to counter any of his weapons which use electromagnetic, infrared or laser systems for guidance or aiming. There are two main methods of achieving this: by jamming, or by the use of decoys, both of which are effective when used properly. Many modern ECM equipment, particularly in the naval scenario, employ both methods in an integrated system.

Noise jamming is the use of transmissions to disrupt the enemy’s communications channels or to saturate his radar to obscure its target. Although this denies the enemy his information channels it also means that the jamming source cannot read the signals for intelligence purposes. Apart from this, modern frequency-agile communication systems are no longer easy to jam effectively.

Simple noise jamming is still in widespread use in the land warfare scenario, one important application being in remotely operated expendable jammers. These can be hand-emplaced, artillery-delivered, dropped from aircraft or used in unmanned aerial vehicles, and serve as short term jammers for a particular operation.

Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures (ECCM)​


Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures (ECCM) is the method by which you endeavor to combat the ECM systems of the enemy by either making your equipment ECM-resistant or by using techniques to nullify his jamming and/or decoy systems. It is an extremely sensitive area in that any disclosure of ECCM measures designed into a system is likely to inform the enemy of its vulnerability to ECM.

Against jamming systems, the most commonly used method is frequency agility, whereby the transmissions are made to “hop” over a large frequency band in a random fashion. This means that either the jammer has to spread its power over the entire band with the inevitable loss of strength on any particular frequency, or it must attempt to follow the signal as it hops randomly.

The latest technique is the use of “stealth” techniques to combat the radar system. This is beginning to be employed in aircraft and consists of several methods to reduce the radar cross section of the aim. The main techniques employed are

  • to design the airframe itself to avoid sharp corners and flat surfaces which act as radar reflectors, and
  • the use of radar-absorbent material which minimizes the amount of energy reflected back to the radar.
At the aircraft, the most important parts of the fuselage can be covered in radar-absorbent material to make it extremely difficult to detect.

Many anti-radiation missiles have been developed. The missile is passive in operation so that it cannot be picked up by ESM systems, and normally locks on to the sidelobes of the radar transmission. The main countermeasures against this type of missile are low sidelobes, frequency agility, and the use of decoy transmitters which must be positioned close enough to the surveillance radar to “seduce” the missile but not so close as to endanger the main system.


This is entirely a race between ECM and ECCM techniques. Kamikaze UAVs will one day have to be redesigned in accordance with invisibility technology and will target low observability. To ensure low RCS (radar cross section) values, we will see many changes such as material engineering (the widespread use of materials that absorb radar waves), designing the form of kamikaze UAVs accordingly, electrification of propulsion systems or the use of hybrid systems, etc. The future of anti-radiation kamikaze drones with a range of 50-60 km, also operating in passive mode, looks bright.

After the progress of countermeasure systems on the basis of both soft kill and hard kill systems, systems produced for simple but daily needs will be doomed to failure.
Therefore, it is unsustainable that today the costs for FPV kamikaze drones are in the range of a few hundred dollars. Because as the specificity of the applied technology increases, the unit cost will also increase. Therefore, projections that aim solely at quantitative density cannot have a future. Systems that can work effectively can only be projects that look for pinpoint vulnerabilities in target platforms and successfully close their own vulnerabilities against enemy countermeasure systems. This is only possible through specialization.
 

Bogeyman 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
8,398
Reactions
60 29,405
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey

Electronic CounterMeasures (ECM)​


ECM is the active part of EW and is intended to disrupt the surveillance systems of the enemy, whether by radar or radio communications, and also to counter any of his weapons which use electromagnetic, infrared or laser systems for guidance or aiming. There are two main methods of achieving this: by jamming, or by the use of decoys, both of which are effective when used properly. Many modern ECM equipment, particularly in the naval scenario, employ both methods in an integrated system.

Noise jamming is the use of transmissions to disrupt the enemy’s communications channels or to saturate his radar to obscure its target. Although this denies the enemy his information channels it also means that the jamming source cannot read the signals for intelligence purposes. Apart from this, modern frequency-agile communication systems are no longer easy to jam effectively.

Simple noise jamming is still in widespread use in the land warfare scenario, one important application being in remotely operated expendable jammers. These can be hand-emplaced, artillery-delivered, dropped from aircraft or used in unmanned aerial vehicles, and serve as short term jammers for a particular operation.

Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures (ECCM)​


Electronic Counter-CounterMeasures (ECCM) is the method by which you endeavor to combat the ECM systems of the enemy by either making your equipment ECM-resistant or by using techniques to nullify his jamming and/or decoy systems. It is an extremely sensitive area in that any disclosure of ECCM measures designed into a system is likely to inform the enemy of its vulnerability to ECM.

Against jamming systems, the most commonly used method is frequency agility, whereby the transmissions are made to “hop” over a large frequency band in a random fashion. This means that either the jammer has to spread its power over the entire band with the inevitable loss of strength on any particular frequency, or it must attempt to follow the signal as it hops randomly.

The latest technique is the use of “stealth” techniques to combat the radar system. This is beginning to be employed in aircraft and consists of several methods to reduce the radar cross section of the aim. The main techniques employed are

  • to design the airframe itself to avoid sharp corners and flat surfaces which act as radar reflectors, and
  • the use of radar-absorbent material which minimizes the amount of energy reflected back to the radar.
At the aircraft, the most important parts of the fuselage can be covered in radar-absorbent material to make it extremely difficult to detect.

Many anti-radiation missiles have been developed. The missile is passive in operation so that it cannot be picked up by ESM systems, and normally locks on to the sidelobes of the radar transmission. The main countermeasures against this type of missile are low sidelobes, frequency agility, and the use of decoy transmitters which must be positioned close enough to the surveillance radar to “seduce” the missile but not so close as to endanger the main system.


This is entirely a race between ECM and ECCM techniques. Kamikaze UAVs will one day have to be redesigned in accordance with invisibility technology and will target low observability. To ensure low RCS (radar cross section) values, we will see many changes such as material engineering (the widespread use of materials that absorb radar waves), designing the form of kamikaze UAVs accordingly, electrification of propulsion systems or the use of hybrid systems, etc. The future of anti-radiation kamikaze drones with a range of 50-60 km, also operating in passive mode, looks bright.

After the progress of countermeasure systems on the basis of both soft kill and hard kill systems, systems produced for simple but daily needs will be doomed to failure.
Therefore, it is unsustainable that today the costs for FPV kamikaze drones are in the range of a few hundred dollars. Because as the specificity of the applied technology increases, the unit cost will also increase. Therefore, projections that aim solely at quantitative density cannot have a future. Systems that can work effectively can only be projects that look for pinpoint vulnerabilities in target platforms and successfully close their own vulnerabilities against enemy countermeasure systems. This is only possible through specialization.

Let's create a hypothetical reality in the opposite direction from the reality I wrote (actually, by learning from what I wrote there).
We are already seeing what can happen if ultra-fast FPV kamikaze drones with high electronic countermeasure systems carry enough explosive material to take a platform out of combat. This will be a new level of efforts to shape the quantity-oriented front we are experiencing now.

However, the advantages of being so light and fast come across as problems in miniaturizing countermeasure systems or the problem of carrying a warhead.

The more miniaturization technologies develop, the faster revolutionary changes will be realized.

You cannot hit this type of UAV with laser weapons. Maybe microwave weapons would work.
 

Nutuk

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
990
Reactions
8 3,543
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
FPV drones with autonomy already beat human champions like Bogeyman showed.

I can't remember which film it was (seen so many sci fi, iron man I think) but there was one film in which the hunter has drones attached to his suite, much like the miniature version of these FPV drones and on command they decouple and attack the enemy.

We are scary close in realizing these sci fi fantasies.
 

boredaf

Contributor
Messages
988
Solutions
1
Reactions
11 2,766
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
BAYRAKTAR TB3 statement from the United Arab Emirates


The United Arab Emirates (UAE) aims to supply Bayraktar TB3 UCAV from Turkey. Faisal Al Bannai, Chairman of EDGE, the umbrella organization of the UAE defense industry sector, made critical statements on the issue.

Referring to TB2 and TB3 unmanned aerial vehicle manufacturers, Al Bannai said, “For example, we are also in talks with Baykar to integrate our missiles into some unmanned aerial vehicles and possibly eventually purchase the Bayraktar TB3 model.”
 

Ecderha

Experienced member
Messages
4,547
Reactions
4 7,814
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
BAYRAKTAR TB3 statement from the United Arab Emirates


The United Arab Emirates (UAE) aims to supply Bayraktar TB3 UCAV from Turkey. Faisal Al Bannai, Chairman of EDGE, the umbrella organization of the UAE defense industry sector, made critical statements on the issue.

Referring to TB2 and TB3 unmanned aerial vehicle manufacturers, Al Bannai said, “For example, we are also in talks with Baykar to integrate our missiles into some unmanned aerial vehicles and possibly eventually purchase the Bayraktar TB3 model.”

They showed on couple military fair that they have own TB2 like platform and even more they show it with mounted own missiles
Their product were said that is flying!

Why they want TB2/3?
 

Heartbang

Experienced member
Messages
2,375
Reactions
7 3,603
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Faisal Al Bannai, Chairman of EDGE,
Bet he's rubbing his hands as we speak, thinking of all the reverse engineering opportunities.

They didn't straighten their :poop: at all. They're the same destabilizing wackjobs that they are.
No TB3 for UAE, simple as.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
4,516
Reactions
6 7,173
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Ethiopia joins the Akıncı club.

Screenshot 2023-11-16 at 09-25-30 UAV Exports.png
 
Last edited:

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,178
Solutions
2
Reactions
97 23,089
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
They showed on couple military fair that they have own TB2 like platform and even more they show it with mounted own missiles
Their product were said that is flying!

Why they want TB2/3?
Have they shown it flying?
If they did, have they shown it flying consistently?
Bet he's rubbing his hands as we speak, thinking of all the reverse engineering opportunities.

They didn't straighten their :poop: at all. They're the same destabilizing wackjobs that they are.
No TB3 for UAE, simple as.
The question is whether they are permitted to re-export, or what degree of local production is aimed there. Hoping that Baykar is smart to not let them be self-sufficient to reproduce or reverse engineer some components and to not allow exports to 3rd parties.

And the big question is, does TR have sufficient power by diplomacy and finances to stop Saudis from reverse engineering, or becoming self-sufficient or outsourcing certain components from third parties and exporting these platforms to TR's markets.
 

DBdev

Committed member
Messages
245
Reactions
8 446
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Bet he's rubbing his hands as we speak, thinking of all the reverse engineering opportunities.

They didn't straighten their :poop: at all. They're the same destabilizing wackjobs that they are.
No TB3 for UAE, simple as.
UAE, Saudi Arabia etc. are welcome to copy any and all Turkish drone technologies considering they are willing to pay 50+ billion dollars for it. These are not nukes or UFOs after all. They can get them from other nations. If China is willing to sell a drone factory to Saudi Arabia for 10 billion dollars I rather sell them copies of Turkish drone factories.
 

Oublious

Experienced member
The Netherlands Correspondent
Messages
2,020
Reactions
7 4,335
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
UAE, Saudi Arabia etc. are welcome to copy any and all Turkish drone technologies considering they are willing to pay 50+ billion dollars for it. These are not nukes or UFOs after all. They can get them from other nations. If China is willing to sell a drone factory to Saudi Arabia for 10 billion dollars I rather sell them copies of Turkish drone factories.


Selcuk Bayraktar spoke about that, the drone itself is nothing, what makes TB2 TB2 is the software. He explained it a lot of time. He calls the frame kaporta bodywork. UAE hhave ther own drone program reachter, it have fly but nothing came out, KSA invested billions of dollar in Chinese drone program 6 years later they are asking Baykar drones with weapons. Technology speaks for itself.



 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
4,053
Reactions
64 7,395
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
Any country with enough investment in R&D, manpower and infrastructure can develop these technologies. I mean, Even BD has its own drone program now.

We have to wait before making any definitive conclusion. Yes no doubt UAE and KSA is late in the game. But nevertheless they are making investment now. Specially UAE did a good job so far IMO.

But more importantly, you have to start somewhere, just because your product can’t take over the number one in the market at first go, doesn’t mean you should be siting duck. There is learning curve for everyone, you can’t skip it. Nor that is something to be looked down upon or ridiculed.
 
Last edited:

Joe mark

Active member
Messages
51
Reactions
6 173
Nation of residence
Egypt
Nation of origin
Burkina Faso
Any country with enough investment in R&D, manpower and infrastructure can develop these technologies. I mean, Even BD has its own drone program now.

We have to wait before making any definitive conclusions. Yes no doubt UAE and KSA is late in the game. But nevertheless they are making investment now. Specially UAE did a good job so far IMO.

But more importantly, you have to start somewhere, just because your product can’t take over the number one in the market at first go, doesn’t mean you should be siting duck. There is learning curve for everyone, you can’t skip it. Nor that is something to be looked down upon or ridiculed.
Lol. All Emiratis do is buy a ready-made product, color it, and rename it as a national product. If their grades were real, they would not need to buy drones from abroad.
 

UkroTurk

Experienced member
Land Warfare Specialist
Professional
Messages
2,316
Reactions
28 4,111
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
FTUAS will replace the Army’s existing TextronTXT RQ-7 Shadow ISR drone with a new runway-independent VTOL UAV. Shadows are powered by gasoline-fueled Wankel rotaries but the Army wants their replacement to be powered by a JP-8/FT-24-fueled hybrid system capable of longer endurance and quieter operation.

LiquidPiston’s HEXE propulsion system can toggle power between all-electric, engine-only, or a combination of both - on demand - while being able to restart the engine in-air on jet fuel.

images (2).jpeg


images (1).jpeg


images.jpeg



Turkish drone producers should be interested in new engines /generators and new VTOL UAV.

Like Nissan's e-power technology.
 
Last edited:

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
4,516
Reactions
6 7,173
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
FTUAS will replace the Army’s existing TextronTXT RQ-7 Shadow ISR drone with a new runway-independent VTOL UAV. Shadows are powered by gasoline-fueled Wankel rotaries but the Army wants their replacement to be powered by a JP-8/FT-24-fueled hybrid system capable of longer endurance and quieter operation.

LiquidPiston’s HEXE propulsion system can toggle power between all-electric, engine-only, or a combination of both - on demand - while being able to restart the engine in-air on jet fuel.

View attachment 62990

View attachment 62988

View attachment 62989


Turkish drone producers should be interested in new engines /generators and new VTOL UAV.

Like Nissan's e-power technology.
Rotary engines are powerful but fuel hungry, high on emissions and noisy. The only example in military is the Harop's British made engine.
 
Last edited:

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom