Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Xenon54]

We are not neutral just like Russia isnt neutral in syria, azerbaijan or libya. I don't look at the Ukrainian/Russian conflict from a western american lens when it concerns Turkiye. I look at it from a 1000 year Turkish/Russian relation perspective.

Its totally in our interests to see Russia brought down to a position that they dare not to even open their mouths against us.

America and Russia will always work together against us. It doesn't matter if they are in a full blown war against each other, against us they will be together. We see this in Syria. We are in a quagmire in Syria because both Russia and the USA are allied against us protecting a warlord and pkk terrorists. America is a super power, thats not going to end anytime soon, but Russia is getting rekt in Ukraine, that loosens their power and influence in syria against us.

Its in our interests that Russia loses this and loses it big. I said it before that morally its best the war ends sooner rather then later, no need for the Ukrainian people to suffer this terror, but at the same time every day it drags out Russia becomes weaker.

We want to see a day where Russia begs us for help instead of bombing our troops and advertising it on TV to try and humiliate us. Its beautiful seeing Russia even having to buy shitty drones from iran, how far they have sunk over this criminal invasion is good to see.

On a side note Ukraine has been good to us and looking forward can be a great friendly nation, Russia will never be a friendly nation to us. Just look at how they treat their so called brothers.

If indeed Turkish rocket artillery was sent to Ukraine as Oryx claims, that tells you 100% that the strategists of the Turkish republic want the same things that i have mentioned here.

From an neutral POV i am rooting all the way for Ukraine and really hope they will once liberate all their lands from Russia.

But looking at it from Turkish perspective things start to change, if lets say Russia is eliminated then the US can focus on other ''trouble makers'' in the neighborhood, who do you think will get into crosshairs of the west as soon as that happens?
I am the last person to believe in conspiracies but wasnt it always like that? Its not so long ago where whole Europe came together to crush the Turks once they had the opportunity to do so.

Who is always talking about 2 million Christians being expelled from Anatolia but conveniently forgetting the 5 million Muslims being expelled from Europe?
Isnt it our NATO allies who harbor and arm hostile entities to Turkey? Isnt it the same allies who sanction over ridiculous reasons?
Even just as recently as Karabakh conflict, remember how European countries were just silent to ethnic cleansing of Azeris from Karabakh, they stood silent to injustice for 30 years and suddenly took stance against Azerbaijan once it started to reclaim its righful lands under international law?
Heck how fast have people forgotten about the NATO drill where one of the enemies was called Atatürk?

Turkey abandons Nato drill over portrayal as the enemy​

Turkey being in NATO and western camp is only due to the strenght of Soviet Union which forced an unwilling symbiosis and that symbiosis is already falling apart now that Russia is not nearly as strong. Who knows what would have happened in an alternative timeline where Turkey would have been neutral, would it even still exist today or would they have succeeded with the partition of Anatolia?

I am all for democracy and western values when its comes to government form of Turkey and i would wish nothing more than Turkey being an equal partner of the West but lets be real, this is nevery gonna happen, some things just never change.

 

[GoatsMilk]

From an neutral POV i am rooting all the way for Ukraine and really hope they will once liberate all their lands from Russia.

But looking at it from Turkish perspective things start to change, if lets say Russia is eliminated then the US can focus on other ''trouble makers'' in the neighborhood, who to you think will get into crosshairs of the west as soon as that happens?
I am the last person to believe in conspiracies but wasnt it always like that? Its not so long abo where whole Europe came together to crush the Turks once they had the opportunity to do so.

View attachment 54461

Who is always talking about 2 million Christians being expelled from Anatolia but conveniently forgetting the 5 million muslims being expelled from Europe?
Isnt it our NATO allies who harbor and arm hostile entities to Turkey? Isnt it the same allies who sanction over ridiculous reasons?
Even just as recently as karabakh conflict, remember how European countries were just silent to ethnic cleansing of Azeris from Karabakh, they stood silent to injustice for 30 years and suddenly took stance against Azerbaijan once it started to reclaim its righful lands under international law?
Heck how fast have people forgotten about the NATO drill where one of the enemies was called Atatürk?

Turkey abandons Nato drill over portrayal as the enemy​

Turkey being in NATO and western camp is only due to the strenght of Soviet Union which forces an unwilling symbiosis, who knows what would have happened in an alternative timeline where Turkey would have been neutral, would it even still exist today or would they have succeeded with the partition of Anatolia?

I am all for democracy and western values when its comes to government form of Turkey and i would wish nothing more than Turkey being an equal partner of the West but lets be real, this is nevery gonna happen, some things just never change.

We are already being focussed on, what do you think is happening Syria or the east med?

The point im making is that these guys work together against us, Russia being kicked off the table just means one less actor operating against us. Americans feel secure in Syria because they have Russia by their side, but if Russia is to give way and the americans are left alone to defend the PKK project they will bail on it.

Take Russia out the game and Turkiye gets to breath and all the Turkic states too. The soviet union fell and Turkiye became stronger because of it, let Russia fall too.

Remember when Turkiye was about to move on eastern Syria both Russia and America threatened us not to do anything, Trump wrote a shitty letter that erdogan threw in the bin. And if that story is to be believed that one act is the most honourable and important thing erdogan has done in the past 20 years. Once we did move on the east against their PKK army, the americans gave their positions over to Russia to spite us. No international media questioned this act by america siding with Russia against Turkiye, none.

So let the Russians fail, then the americans can carry the entire weight of their marxist terrorist project alone at that point they will capitulate on it.

 

[Xenon54]

We are already being focussed on, what do you think is happening Syria or the east med?

The point im making is that these guys work together against us, Russia being kicked off the table just means one less actor operating against us. Americans feel secure in Syria because they have Russia by their side, but if Russia is to give way and the americans are left alone to defend the PKK project they will bail on it.

Take Russia out the game and Turkiye gets to breath and all the Turkic states too. The soviet union fell and Turkiye became stronger because of it, let Russia fall too.

This is the part where i dont agree with, NATO still needs Turkey to counter Russia due to the straits and Russia needs Turkey because they literally have no other option.
Russia being out of the picture will completely change these dynamics in favor of the West which will not become friendlier towards Turkey once this happens.

 

[GoatsMilk]

This is the part where i dont agree with, NATO still needs Turkey to counter Russia due to the straits and Russia needs Turkey because they literally have no other option.
Russia being out of the picture will completely change these dynamics in favor of the West which will not become friendlier towards Turkey once this happens.

They will always need us to counter Russia geographically, that wont end because Russia gets rekt over Ukraine. What im talking about is Russian power being reduced to a point where they cannot challenge us in our regional interests.

And remember if a day comes that Russia needs us, the west has to be kinder to us because otherwise we are kind to Russia at their detriment. We can play the balancing game again that was lost over places like syria when the USA and Russia just allied together against us.

Pre invasion Russia treated us as an enemy that can be threatened and manipulated, they are being brought down to earth. If this war went on another few years they will be begging us for support.

Keep this in mind the geographic value of the land has remained for the past 2000 years. There was a good reason the Romans made it their capital and good reason the Ottomans after it. For much of history Russia was no concern yet the value of the region remained, if Russia theoretically disappeared tomorrow, the region still hold geopolitical significance.

 

[Xenon54]

They will always need us to counter Russia geographically, that wont end because Russia gets rekt over Ukraine. What im talking about is Russian power being reduced to a point where they cannot challenge us in our regional interests.

And remember if a day comes that Russia needs us, the west has to be kinder to us because otherwise we are kind to Russia at their detriment. We can play the balancing game again that was lost over places like syria when the USA and Russia just allied together against us.

Well, i am talking about a scenario where Russia would be eliminated once for all which isnt even that unrealistics looking at economic and demographic numbers.
Hence why i am saying we should be careful with adding fuel to the dumpster fire.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Well, i am talking about a scenario where Russia would be eliminated once for all which isnt even that unrealistics looking at economic and demographic numbers.
Hence why i am saying we should be careful with adding fuel to the dumpster fire.

If Russia were eliminated it would just lead to new players filling in the vacuum and being greater powers. For example lets say russia vanished, China and Japan in the east will look to expand. The Turkic nations in central Asia will expand outwards. Nations like Turkiye would look to expand up through the caucuses and its very likely that a new power or bloc in eastern europe will emerge.

This means new powers that will enter the game and that changes everything again, Turkiye will not exist alone to be the primary focus of the americans.

though i do get what your saying and its not without its merits, i just dont feel its the way to operate.

But let me add something else in aid of your point. The americans already knew that Russia was rotting from within. One of the posters on here basically hit the nail on the head when he pointed out how the west helped corruption take route in russia and then the western media made the Russians believe they were a super power. So the Americans already knew that Russia had become the sick man of eurasia and a few years from now may be called the dying man. Knowing this I suspect a big part of arming the greek islands is to eventually counter Turkish control of the straights. They know that Russia is on the way out, so they can play harsher against us. And this would justify your argument to a degree.

 

[Xenon54]

But let me add something else in aid of your point. The americans already knew that Russia was rotting from within. One of the posters on here basically hit the nail on the head when he pointed out how the west helped corruption take route in russia and then the western media made the Russians believe they were a super power. So the Americans already knew that Russia had become the sick man of eurasia and a few years from now may be called the dying man. Knowing this I suspect a big part of arming the greek islands is to eventually counter Turkish control of the straights. They know that Russia is on the way out, so they can play harsher against us. And this would justify your argument to a degree.

Well this is exactly what i am expecting once they are done with Russia.

And regarding the sick man and aiding corruption, just remember who installed Gülenists and their partners into Turkish politics who then removed the most capable generals and you can sense which direction the story goes.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Well this is exactly what i am expecting once they are done with Russia.

And regarding the sick man and aiding corruption, just remember who installed Gülenists and their partners into Turkish politics who then removed the most capable generals and you can sense which direction the story goes.

Of your argument and my argument i feel more inclined to take the position of my opinion. However this doesnt mean you are wrong, you may end up being proven right.

What i do know is that we are not going to get an easy ride. The soviet union fell and that gave us room to breath, Russia getting rekt in Ukraine takes pressure off us from all the places Russia opposes us.

When the Russian peacekeepers time is done in Azerbaijan, Aliyev can legitimately have them removed without fear of consequence, this couldn't have been done pre Ukraine invasion.

All empires come to end, Russia is no different, they too will come to an end one day.

 

[Nilgiri]

BREAKING: The U.S. State Department stated today that it is now clear that China has decided to take a Side on the War in Ukraine.

Sources are also saying China is also considering supplying Russia with 122mm and 152mm artillery munitions.

 

[contricusc]

NATO does not transfer resources to Turkiye. Most of them even impose embargoes. Also, the friction with the US and Europe has nothing to do with the Russian-Ukrainian war.

Funny European and American arguments.

Isolate Turkiye economically, militarily and politically and then ask for help. As usual, they put Turkiye forward and expect sacrifices from us. Go ask from Germany and France.

NATO doesn’t transfer resources, but it allows access to the most advanced technologies. Turkey was even part of the F35 program before Erdogan chose to buy the S400 from Putin, against the US wishes.

Being part of NATO comes with many benefits. One of the benefits is access to state of the art weapons (yes, you need to buy them, but you are allowed to, unlike NATO’s enemies). The other big benefit is that you are not at risk to suffer the wrath of a US attack in case you oppose their regional interests.

Right now, there is not much sympathy in Europe towards Turkey because of Erdogan’s rethoric towards Greece, the sytuation in Cyprus and the neutral stance towards Russia.

Yes, I understand your frustration with Western support for the PKK terrorists, but Erdogan’s hostile attitude towards Greece and the unwillingness to withdraw from Cyprus sends the wrong signal to the EU.

Think about it this way: why would the EU want a powerful Turkey if the same Turkey threatens EU member Greece and frustrates the attempts of Cyprus to develop the gas resources badly needed by Europe?

In the Western world, there is no sympathy for leaders who want to redraw maps and who challenge the sovereignty of other countries. When Erdogan says he can come one night and occupy some Greek islands (in the same way Putin took Crimea), it doesn’t build trust and friendship.

You don’t see any head of state of an EU country saying that Greece should take back Constantinople or any other stupid thing like that. This kind of rethoric is reserved for fringe right wing extremists, not for national leaders.

 

[contricusc]

The "friction" with the west was there long before the Ukraine war. Turkiye can't count on a collective defence pact who's been threatening its sovereignty on the down low.
If they are willing to fuck around, they mustn't cry like a silly baby when they find out.

Yes, the friction was long before the war in Ukraine, and this could have been an opportunity to reduce the friction, by working together against a common foe.

As for threatening the sovereignty, why is Erdogan threatening Greece with invading its islands, and why is he not allowing Cyprus to function as a full sovereign country? When you keep troops in a foreign country and support breaking it in two, you can’t expect others to respect your sovereignty.

If Turkey would work with Greece and Cyprus to solve all the current issues, the attitude from Europe would also change. It would also help if you would fully condemn Russia’s invasion and cooperate with sanctions.

 

[Ryder]

It is exactly this neutral stance that is causing friction with the West. If NATO can’t count on Turkey when dealing with Russia, why would it invest much resources and why it should trust Turkey?

The war in Ukraine was a great chance for Turkey to mend its relations with Europe and the US. If Turkey would join the coalition of countries sending heavy equipment to Ukraine, it would send a strong message, that Turkey is an ally of the West, not a neutral power.

But the current stance of neutrality only reinforces the idea many people in Europe have that Turkey is not a reliable ally.

“helping to put a nail in Russian coffin will only be worse in the long run for Turkish interests.”

It is exactly this kind of thinking that make people in Europe weary about what Turkey sees as its long term interests.

We lost 30+ troops to the Russians and the whole fcking world just watched especially Nato.

When Georgia got invaded, When Chechnya got pulverised.

The fcking world just watched.

 

[Relic]

We lost 30+ troops to the Russians and the whole fcking world just watched especially Nato.

When Georgia got invaded, When Chechnya got pulverised.

The fcking world just watched.

Everyone is self-interested. We in the West did not care about Georgia, and especially, about Chechnya. We care about Ukraine for a couple reasons.

1). It's the largest country in Europe by landmass. We don't want Russia regaining such a large piece of territory on NATO's border with Poland.

2). Ukraine is home to significant resources and has excellent sea access to the Mediterranean. We don't want Russia growing their economy through the theft of those resources and that sea access.

3). A coalition of NATO countries spent the better part of the last decade training thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and we spent hundreds of millions of dollars (if not billions) helping them prepare for a time when Russia would cross their borders and invade. Even we underestimated them (largely their will to fight) and overestimated Russia's ability.

4). This point is the most important. We actually think Ukraine can achieve some semblance of a victory over Russia. NATO and its allies knew that Chechnya and Georgia, no matter how foreign aid they received could not stand up to Russia long term. Their countries are too small and too easy to invade and their geography make them wayyyy too difficult for NATO to resupply. The Polish border with Western Ukraine is the perfect place to transport weapons into Ukraine.

Ukraine gave NATO the best opportunity it will ever get to destroy the Soviet War Machine that Russia inherited. Russia will emerge from this conflict as a significantly weaker country, with a GDP in decline, cut off from many of the Western technologies that are integrated into the advanced elements of their economy and a military that will not be able to invade a major country for a generation when this war is over. Even if this war costs NATO and its Allies $500 Billion (we're around $150 Billion at this point), that's the cheapest price we're ever going to get to ensure that Russia's power projection is destroyed for the next 50+ years. This deal will be a bargain for the West and we're watching the Russian Army get destroyed using equipment that is largely obsolete and in the process of being replaced by the West.

The United States military will come out of this conflict stronger than ever. The Ukrainian military is coming out of this conflict stronger than ever. The British military is coming out of this conflict stronger. The German military is coming out of this conflict stronger. The Canadian military is coming out of this conflict stronger. The Polish military is coming out of this conflict stronger. The Finnish and Swedish militaries are coming out of this conflict stronger. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc are coming out of this conflict stronger.

Russia will leave this conflict vastly weaker.

 

[Soldier30]

A Ukrainian tank was hit by two Russian Lancet kamikaze drones at once. After the first drone strike, a fire started on the tank, the crew quickly reacted and extinguished it. This was followed by a second strike by a kamikaze drone, the result of the strike is difficult to distinguish, but something caught fire in the area of the engine compartment.

Rare footage of the interception of the Ukrainian M142 HIMARS MLRS missile by the Russian Buk air defense system has been published. HIMARS MLRS rockets are a difficult target for air defense, they are not large in size and fly at high altitude and speed, only an experienced air defense calculation can intercept HIMARS missiles, since the decision time is less than 10 seconds.

 

[contricusc]

We lost 30+ troops to the Russians and the whole fcking world just watched especially Nato.

When Georgia got invaded, When Chechnya got pulverised.

The fcking world just watched.

Yes, the world watched and did nothing in previous Russian aggressions. Even now in Ukraine, nobody gets directly involved in the war.

But unlike with Georgia, Ukraine has a chance of winning, so they are getting weapons to defend themselves. Every country that has a capable military should send some help. At least some ammunition for their artillery.

 

[Gary]

To be honest, Chinese shells will not help Russian military quagmire that much. Not until they could present some sort of reforms on how the military operate.

But its interesting, because for China that means:

1. Confirming China's superior status in the alliance
2. Russia admit to be second place/juniors
3. long term energy security from Russia in exchange ?

And for the war in Ukraine, means Ukraine and its allies could not count on Russian shells starvation for a long time because China could simply outweigh the combined Western industrial output let alone shells production.

As black jack posted in the other threads when it comes to shells there are 3 main/basic ingridients

1. Metal
2. Chemical
3. Energy

No 1 and 2 China wins hands down. China share for chemical production in 2021 accounts for 45% world total and steel production has been written here before.

 

[Anastasius]

Yes, the friction was long before the war in Ukraine, and this could have been an opportunity to reduce the friction, by working together against a common foe.

As for threatening the sovereignty, why is Erdogan threatening Greece with invading its islands, and why is he not allowing Cyprus to function as a full sovereign country? When you keep troops in a foreign country and support breaking it in two, you can’t expect others to respect your sovereignty.

If Turkey would work with Greece and Cyprus to solve all the current issues, the attitude from Europe would also change. It would also help if you would fully condemn Russia’s invasion and cooperate with sanctions.

On the topic of Cyprus, I would like to mention that it was Turkey that made two proposals for unification. As far as I am aware Greece has made no such proposals.

 

[UkroTurk]

Lukashenko said that Ukraine should "make peace" with Putin

Lukashenka believes that "the West applauds the Ukrainian leader insincerely, although Zelensky is allegedly pleased with this."

Alexander Lukashenko said that "Ukraine must immediately make peace with Russia," and Zelensky himself is "a good, albeit inexperienced person." On Monday, February 27, Lukashenka was quoted by BelTA as saying.



According to Lukashenka, Kyiv should "make peace" with Moscow until "until Russia has fully developed its economy and put it on a war footing."


"Now there is a unique situation, I see it and intuitively feel when it is possible to put an end to this conflict. There may not be another like it," he said.

At the same time, he said that Moscow went to war against Kyiv in order to "ensure security for Russia - so that there would never be signs of aggression against it from the territory of Ukraine."


Peskov complained that Macron and Scholz had not called Putin for a long time

The Kremlin notes that despite statements about their readiness to "keep in contact," the leaders of France and Germany do not.

The leaders of France and Germany have not initiated contacts with Vladimir Putin for a long time. Dmitry Peskov, press secretary of the President of the Russian Federation, stated this in an interview with the Russian propaganda publication Izvestiya, published on Tuesday, February 28.

 

[chibiyabi]

To be honest, Chinese shells will not help Russian military quagmire that much. Not until they could present some sort of reforms on how the military operate.

But its interesting, because for China that means:

1. Confirming China's superior status in the alliance
2. Russia admit to be second place/juniors
3. long term energy security from Russia in exchange ?

And for the war in Ukraine, means Ukraine and its allies could not count on Russian shells starvation for a long time because China could simply outweigh the combined Western industrial output let alone shells production.

As black jack posted in the other threads when it comes to shells there are 3 main/basic ingridients

1. Metal
2. Chemical
3. Energy

No 1 and 2 China wins hands down. China share for chemical production in 2021 accounts for 45% world total and steel production has been written here before.

food is main problem for china if they pick a side...

 

[UkroTurk]

AFU repelled 60 enemy attacks in five directions

The Ukrainian army has been fighting back the enemy for 370 days

During the day, 11 Iranian strike UAVs were destroyed, as well as strikes were made on the areas where the invaders were concentrated.

The troops of the Russian Federation are concentrating their main efforts on conducting offensive operations in the Kupyansky, Limansky, Bakhmutsky, Avdeevsky and Shakhtyorsky directions. Over the past day, the Armed Forces of Ukraine repulsed more than 60 enemy attacks, the General Staff reported in the morning report on February 28.



The Armed Forces of Ukraine called the peculiarity of the Russian offensive on Bakhmut

The Russian Federation threw the most trained "Wagnerites" to the Bakhmut direction

Russia has thrown the most trained detachments of Wagner PMCs to the Bakhmut direction, Alexander Syrsky notes.

Russian war criminals sent the most trained assault detachments of the PMC Wagner to the Bakhmut direction. This was stated by the Commander of the Ground Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Colonel-General Oleksandr Syrsky, the Military Media Center reports on Tuesday, February 28, on his Telegram channel.


The situation in Bakhmut is difficult - Zelensky

The situation in the Donetsk region remains difficult

The enemy is destroying everything that can be used to protect our positions, to consolidate and defend.

The situation in the Bakhmut direction is constantly becoming more complicated. The enemy is destroying everything that can be used to protect and defend Ukrainian positions. This was announced on Monday, February 27, by President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky.