Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Relic

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Pretty hard to believe the nuke option but it would have been believable if the Ukrainians were close to pushing the Russians out of Ukraine.

The funny part I realized about this thread is one pro-ukraine user says we are not giving Ukraine enough while another pro-ukraine user likes to posts all the goods and equipment Ukraine gets. @contricusc @Relic you two want to say something to each other and the rest of us just to clear up any confusion?
Lol, you're mischaracterizing my opinion. Never have I said that Ukraine has received enough material to win this war. But I'm making the correct observation that Ukraine IS receiving enough aid to not lose the war any time soon, while the Russian Army's vaunted Soviet stockpile is dwindling at a pace exponentially faster than they can replace it at.

Remember that the Western goal is to ensure than Ukraine remains an independent (and Western leaning) country, while simultaneously destroying Russia's offensive combat capabilities for a generation.

The West is incredibly frustrating, but they're doing exactly what they need to to make this war insanely costly for Russia.
 

Ryder

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The thing with the peace deal in 2022 March that was rejected.

It was basically Ukraine capitulating to Russia.

Its logical nobody would accept such a treaty. Even if Boris Johnson did not visit the terms and conditions were way too deluded for Ukraine to accept because its even much worse than 2014 and 2015.

Russia's peace treaties have always been capitulation or complete surrender. Its logical for Ukraine to reject it even if it comes at a high cost with the war constantly stalemating.

Even if Russia is gaining ground. Russia has not been getting rapid gains but small gains with enormous costs.

This war is all about who is going to break first then quit.
 

contricusc

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Why would they 'give up on Ukraine'? They consider it theirs, or at least in their zone of interest politically, geographically, culturally, historically, strategically.

They would give up on Ukraine if the alternative would be the disintegration of Russia and complete collapse of the regime.

If the West applied economic sanctions in a meaningful way, coupled with more help for Ukraine including capabilities to strike deep inside Russia (Especially against economic targets), and also arm some rebelions in Russian republics with large demographic minorities like Dagestan or Ingushetia, the Russian regime would be unable to sustain the war on multiple fronts while having a collapsing economy.

Some retarded politicians in the West would say this is a dangerous scenario because Russia would go nuclear, so they try to avoid it, while the reality is that this is an ideal scenario where the Russian regime would come to the negotiating table and withdraw from Ukraine in order to avoid its collapse.

Unfortunately the West is run by politicians even more cowardly than Putin, which is something really shameful.

Even a conventional hot war with Russia is something Putin & Co are well aware the west wants no part of (even though, yes, the west would win that showdown, duh). They're not going to 'give up on' Ukraine for the simple reason that they've called our bluff, they know we don't have the stomach or will for a fight like that anymore.

It is all about the incompetence and cowardly nature of Western leaders, it has nothing to do with having or not having the will to fight. Russia could have easily been defeated even without NATO engaging them directly, simply by applying real economic pressure, giving more lethal help to Ukraine and funding rebellions inside Russia.

Ukrainians and Russian minorities who hate the regime would have done the fighting for the West if given enough support. And the Russian economy would have collapsed if it were put under real sanctions, not the jokes currently imposed on them.

Certainly not over a little place like Ukraine that, let's be honest, about 3 years ago Average Joe/Jane American or Brit or whatever basically just thought of as "Russia-lite" anyway. All of those former-Soviet states blend together for the normies, and every western leader's damn well cognisant of the fact their population has no appetite whatsoever for sending their sons over there to teach Big Meanie Russia a lesson on good international etiquette. Or be responsible with providing stuff to rain hellfire down on Russian cities with.

This is because Western leaders are no better than the regular normies who can’t point their own country on a map. They are unable to form a coherent strategy to defeat Russia, not because they lack the means, but because they lack the will and the intellect.

It's about all you can do, and it's obviously not going to be enough. Sucks, but better than the alternative, that's the western calculation. "If Putin's dumb enough to go into Poland then obviously it's fucking on, but Ukraine's a pretty unique situation not rising to that bar. Best of luck, homies, here's some boom-booms we can spare, just don't do anything stupid with them."

No, it is not “about all you can do”. It is what the treacherous Western leaders are willing to do for a country they encouraged to decouple from Russia and take the risks associated with that.

The insanity is so high that they care more about energy prices than they do about a war in the heart of Europe. They even continue to talk about nonsensical issues like climate change when there is a big hot war in the middle of Europe… How much more delusional these people can be?
 

Spitfire9

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The West is incredibly frustrating, but they're doing exactly what they need to to make this war insanely costly for Russia.
With no apparent regard for what this is costing the Ukrainians - the lives lost, the lives ruined, the architectural treasures obliterated, the homes lost and so on. In my view the purpose of US aid to Ukraine is not to aid Ukraine. It is to harm Russia.
 

FiReFTW

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With no apparent regard for what this is costing the Ukrainians - the lives lost, the lives ruined, the architectural treasures obliterated, the homes lost and so on. In my view the purpose of US aid to Ukraine is not to aid Ukraine. It is to harm Russia.
This is of course 100% true. But that's nothing new for the US, they never care much about the actual nation they "pretend" to help, they always only have their interests in it, every single time.
 

Spitfire9

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The insanity is so high that they care more about energy prices than they do about a war in the heart of Europe. They even continue to talk about nonsensical issues like climate change when there is a big hot war in the middle of Europe… How much more delusional these people can be?
I have to disagree with your judgement that climate change is a nonsensical issue. Yes, there is a big, hot war in the middle of Europe (conveniently sized by the US to persist and exhaust Russia at the cost of the Ukrainians). However, the existence of war in Europe does not make additional discussion of a far more destructive threat - a worldwide one - inappropriate or delusional.
 

Rooxbar

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This is of course 100% true. But that's nothing new for the US, they never care much about the actual nation they "pretend" to help, they always only have their interests in it, every single time.
That's only natural; the bigger portion of any blame which might exist falls on Ukrainian politicians, intelligentsia and public figures who could not (or didn't want to, because of self-interest) read the situation and help the populace adopt the expedient attitudes (helping them avoid ideologically charged attitudes which gave carte blanche to hawks).

Reciprocal escalation of cultural animosity and demonization fueled by the politicians and public figures on both sides and adopted by low-information populace landed them in this mess. The lion share of spurring on of this vicious cycle though falls on Russian maximalist desires when it came to Ukrainian politics and its control. Opposition to this in the Ukrainian intelligentsia and populace shouldn't have led to demonization, but practical maneuvering.
 

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