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Nilgiri

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Regardless these humble folk (rising by their own effort and hardwork solely) prove the sparks and embers are there, ready to turn into fire.

Pakistan has to find way to take these embers to generate fire....rather than throw them to the wind and see if they stay lit.

This ember nurturing was extreme neglected process in India too for longest time (and still has huge entrenchment to overcome), so I know what is being confronted in Pakistan's case even more.

Maybe Pak Fauj and overseas expatriates can play big role here (for this steady nurture environment which need dedication for span of 10+ years to get started)....rather than rely on pakistan civvy govt sports board and civvy govt support (and corruption + drama there) etc.

These sons of soil like Nadeem speak at deeper level to what true nationalism is, if you read their story, struggle against odds and raw perseverance. They do lot more with the few cards they got dealt than the ones that had all the cards given to them, and just fritter and blabber it away.

It is why true nationalism in end actually reaches and strikes true nationalism veins in other countries like nothing else can (even if countries have whatever deep grievance and divide between them).

We recognise that stuff at deeper and subconscious level than the fake-blah stuff.

When your life is full of doing (often by the raw circumstance alone for survival) , rather than complaining, whining and whatever other elitist buffer time allows....you tend to be best your nation has.

Bridging these folks to real opportunity is the only answer to our region's deep set problems.

Forgot to tag @VCheng for this thread perusal.
 

VCheng

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Pakistan has to find way to take these embers to generate fire....rather than throw them to the wind and see if they stay lit.

What a poetically true statement. What a pity it is then, since Pakistan has a history of throwing the sparkling embers into the wind to leave as diaspora across the world, while it throws the leftover ashes into its own face.
 

Waz

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Respect from the south...


BTW, there was also Pakistani javelin thrower I was keeping an eye on (Arshad Nadeem).

Guy has bigger frame than Neeraj, and there would be more like him waiting to be nurtured and developed to get to the apex realm. Then its matter of consistency and luck. He would have medalled if he got closer to his personal best.

He is big hearted guy, and Neeraj is hero to him:


Maybe @Waz @Saiyan0321 @Kaptaan et al. can tell us a bit more about him and what their general thoughts on PK sports these days.

Waz is one I particularly would appreciate going through this thread and giving us some points to muse on if he would like ....as I remember having friendly chat with Waz about our wrestlers (on both sides of border) back in 2018 CWG I believe...iirc there was good sportsmanship+friendship between Muhammad Inam and Somveer Kadian at the medal ceremony.

It seems to me that Pakistan is stuck even more in the problems that India faced (and faces still though there is slow improvement now), with too much focus on monolith (Cricket) + usual corruption every endeavour attracts in south asia...and this severely detracts ability to grow other sports vertically at the apex process and intensity needed.

My friend the state of Pakistani sports other than cricket (not that's any good either) is total bakwas. The lack, actually the non-existent funding is a national scandal. We have senior people in the Pakistani Olympic Committee having done nothing for the past 17 years and still collecting pay cheques.

However that looks to change, as the mass uproar regarding what happened at the games is all over social media and the press, with people turning their ire on cricket and the PCO. Admittedly cricket is not funded by the government so the whole thing about funds being diverted is not true. However the national obsession with it certainly does hurt other sports.

Anger surged when Pakistani athletes with no training facilities still made respectable finishes. Look at Talib making 4 just out of the medals. If I told you Pakistani lifters trained with fourth grade weights in the open, you'd think I'm mad, sadly not this is the reality.

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Here is a documentary on Talib from the BBC in Urdu, I know your Hindi is good. It's heartbreaking what the guy comes out with.


I was on the strength forums and many Indian guys in India and elsewhere actually cheered him on, and were proud that a desi guy could out lift so many. Look at the comments from the YouTube video from Indian viewers;

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Of course we had

Taking away the Indo v Pak thing people in both regions feel proud that a native of our lands can compete with the best. He was the only subcontinent lifter to place in the top ten in any division.
Again it's the same story with Nadeem Arshad the Javelin thrower who got 5th, who again God knows how he got there.
He has better facilities courtesy of wait for it PSL. Yep you read that correct PSL. Could you imagine the IPL offering their facilities to train Indian olympians. Yes it's a nice gesture but India's massive social media users would be screaming murder!


From the looks of it the dude just trains in Pakistan....

Just some decent investment could swing the game, I could just imagine India and Pakistan on the podium together. It nearly happened with the Javelin.

Going back to this respect even cheering for the athletes of the other nation. India's wrestlers did a mighty job;
Ravi Kumar 57kg silver.
Bajrang Bajrang 65kg bronze.
Deepak Punia 4th 86kg.


I put up a thread in their honour elsewhere. Many Pakistanis loved their determination and strength. Some Indian posters were a little critical but these shortsighted folks don't understand the wealth of experience these guys will bring back to India'a next generation and current crop of wrestlers. Gold is well within their sights.
India has done well to get over their glut of cricket, and have started to look elsewhere, hence the dividends being reaped. Sadly Pakistan is still asleep.
 

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Nilgiri

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My friend the state of Pakistani sports other than cricket (not that's any good either) is total bakwas. The lack, actually the non-existent funding is a national scandal. We have senior people in the Pakistani Olympic Committee having done nothing for the past 17 years and still collecting pay cheques.

However that looks to change, as the mass uproar regarding what happened at the games is all over social media and the press, with people turning their ire on cricket and the PCO. Admittedly cricket is not funded by the government so the whole thing about funds being diverted is not true. However the national obsession with it certainly does hurt other sports.

Anger surged when Pakistani athletes with no training facilities still made respectable finishes. Look at Talib making 4 just out of the medals. If I told you Pakistani lifters trained with fourth grade weights in the open, you'd think I'm mad, sadly not this is the reality.

View attachment 27615

Here is a documentary on Talib from the BBC in Urdu, I know your Hindi is good. It's heartbreaking what the guy comes out with.


I was on the strength forums and many Indian guys in India and elsewhere actually cheered him on, and were proud that a desi guy could out lift so many. Look at the comments from the YouTube video from Indian viewers;

View attachment 27616 View attachment 27617 View attachment 27618
View attachment 27619
View attachment 27621
View attachment 27622

Of course we had

Taking away the Indo v Pak thing people in both regions feel proud that a native of our lands can compete with the best. He was the only subcontinent lifter to place in the top ten in any division.
Again it's the same story with Nadeem Arshad the Javelin thrower who got 5th, who again God knows how he got there.
He has better facilities courtesy of wait for it PSL. Yep you read that correct PSL. Could you imagine the IPL offering their facilities to train Indian olympians. Yes it's a nice gesture but India's massive social media users would be screaming murder!


From the looks of it the dude just trains in Pakistan....

Just some decent investment could swing the game, I could just imagine India and Pakistan on the podium together. It nearly happened with the Javelin.

Going back to this respect even cheering for the athletes of the other nation. India's wrestlers did a mighty job;
Ravi Kumar 57kg silver.
Bajrang Bajrang 65kg bronze.
Deepak Punia 4th 86kg.


I put up a thread in their honour elsewhere. Many Pakistanis loved their determination and strength. Some Indian posters were a little critical but these shortsighted folks don't understand the wealth of experience these guys will bring back to India'a next generation and current crop of wrestlers. Gold is well within their sights.
India has done well to get over their glut of cricket, and have started to look elsewhere, hence the dividends being reaped. Sadly Pakistan is still asleep.

Thanks for the long reply bro. Agree with you overall.

Nadeem was somewhat unlucky to medal in the final, he would have gotten there if he repeated his qualification throw distance more or less.... and gotten bronze I believe.

Pressure of final gets to people in the end sometimes, especially when weight of nation is on you even more...it happened to couple of our shooters too in this olympics, they did great in qualifying round and pressure got to them in the final and they flubbed it instead of repeating what they did in qual-round. Consistency at the A+ tier needs coolest nerves as possible basically.

This I feel can be mitigated by improving the raw supply of the athletes we (the region) send that can demonstrably medal....as when some start to (esp early on in competition, as mirabai for us), it takes lot off the chest of the others as rising waters lift all boats etc.

What is your impression on Pak Fauj getting involved big time into this to help with nurture + cultivate?

They would have best chance of cutting through all the BS layers of whichever corrupt/apathetic goon network....and simply scout, invest in and provide whatever is needed for those that most need it like they could have with Nadeem (say right after his south asia games success when he started to throw in 85 m range).

Indian armed forces had earlier era where it helped cultivate number of athletes noticeably (esp given meagre resources of cold war era)...till it dropped off for a few decades...and now hopefully it renews and re-establishes again fruitfully with Neeraj result.

With athletics its tough like I mention before in this thread, given commercial interest cannot be generated like with league sports (i.e there is no constant churn and competition for athletics like we have with sports like cricket, football etc).

So somebody has to foot the bill consistently given this and with enough intensity.... to best help athletes (in all hard-to-commercialize disciplines but produce good chances to medal per investment... in international meets)....

..and in all 3 tiers: raw, honed and top tier...given this in itself is a big part of organising and having the merit system flow and entrench.

You and I, and those like us know very well the sheer scale of the sons and daughters of soil (in rural setting) ready to be harnessed to provide to "raw" scope as 1st step for example. We know what our village women do each day, the burdens they carry and strength and grit they have naturally from it. Yet so many obstacles lie in their way...and not even one conduit there for one to breakout and get great success and recognition and offer role model and hope to so many more.

This is really the most crushing thing if you think about it. Something has to cut through past all obstacles and bridge to them directly and quickly....we cannot afford to wait for society itself to slowly improve to do this "Chalta hai" way we desis love to have in psychology as some shoulder shrug pathetic excuse.

So I feel armed forces (and maybe shored up with finance from expat wallet+interest) is Pakistan's best chance to start something now....as let's face it, Fauj probably has the single largest concentration of nationalist aptitude (that can reach directly to those needing it right away) to see such things through....and best chance of the ember---> fire process I speak of in current setting....i.e it (Fauj) is where it is by having ethos that is the very antithesis to chalta-hai. It has to be harnessed and deployed surely?
 

mulj

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I will wait for @LegionnairE response (and any other true Turk nationalists replies that are interested).....

Then I might respond to this casual throwing around of terms like "Nazi" by some crypto-islamist....w.r.t this topic at large and the consistencies needed as first principle in order to do that....if it is even relevant to do so going forward.

The extreme-islamist (who made some awful degenerate replies, some of which got a like from the crypto-islamist) needs no response as he has been show the door....and his sewage-riddled posts have been deleted.

And honestly the true turk nationalists (there are quite a number of you to list, number of you with Ataturk in DP) and true bosnian nationalist @Bosanski Vojnik here are 100% correct about one of these guys and folks of that sort in general.

I am happy their warped vision and ideology gets to recede more and more by crushing reality.

I suppose that will make their voices more shrill and shrill too. Oh well.

What inevitably happens when you try to establish a civil discourse (numbers and rational facts) and these kind of people are around in the mix taking advantage of any good-faith approach given and dumping all over it to get some easy kick (because they are crap at real life lets face it), is quite disgusting.

Hope for the extreme-type sake, he is just some zoomer kid....if he is older than that, thats pretty sad to imagine.

This lunatic bitterness is just never far from them.....You defeat them in here or out there (where it counts lot more)...and it just gets worse...as they have merged ideology with their own narcissism...and reality check doesn't quite make its way to them fast enough or ever (the world is big with lot of insular spots)

I'll never forget how bunch of them got triggered in most vile way when discussing Ataturk the one time (I forgot if it was here or previous place).

Pre-Islamic Turkic culture/roots is another one that always gets them going too.

So its easy to see if thats the case as it is for Turkey to begin with, what chance of fair discussion other Civs and cultures even have with them.

Its even funnier and more ironic when they aren't even Turkish to begin with....then some launder extra flags past even their other assumed+projected identity. Talk about shameless.

Anyway I will make it clear, I am only interested in sustained dialogue on this matter with actual Turks here.
you can label people all you want if that makes you feel better, undisputed fact is that hindutva nacism is on the rise and threatening, your waffling around the bush will not change it. clean your house first then talk from higher ground like you have some objective opinion.


 

Ryder

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you can label people all you want if that makes you feel better, undisputed fact is that hindutva nacism is on the rise and threatening, your waffling around the bush will not change it. clean your house first then talk from higher ground like you have some objective opinion.



I hope India can cool this off. Religious wars or race wars or pogroms are counter productive. Hindu extremists and Muslim extremists are two sides of the same coin.

India suffered the partitions along with Pakistan also had many pogroms or religious clashes between Muslims and Hindus.

Most Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus all have cool heads but its you know the loud ones that just want their world to burn.
 

mulj

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I hope India can cool this off. Religious wars or race wars or pogroms are counter productive. Hindu extremists and Muslim extremists are two sides of the same coin.

India suffered the partitions along with Pakistan also had many pogroms or religious clashes between Muslims and Hindus.

Most Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus all have cool heads but its you know the loud ones that just want their world to burn.
No, bro. the guy that chanted was arrested and released on bail like he is not threat for community, this kind of shit is state sponsored and then some guy from canada have audacity to label people around as some kind of islamists and lecture us about our connections with turkish people and state.
no way ordinary people which are like you said usually cool and normal can resist nacismazition of country without clear and harsh state attitude and response which will not happen until current goverment is in position.
 

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For those interested, the movie is out on Amazon Prime. Thankfully not very jinogistic like the Sunny Deol movies of yore.
 

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For those interested, the movie is out on Amazon Prime. Thankfully not very jinogistic like the Sunny Deol movies of yore.
Will watch on weekend , any reviews ?
Only movie which sets some high standards which war cum intelligence drama was Madras Cafe ( I watched that movie 7-8 times)
 

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I hope India can cool this off. Religious wars or race wars or pogroms are counter productive. Hindu extremists and Muslim extremists are two sides of the same coin.

India suffered the partitions along with Pakistan also had many pogroms or religious clashes between Muslims and Hindus.

Most Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus all have cool heads but its you know the loud ones that just want their world to burn.

I find that Sikhs are usually the least prone to extremism among the three major religions of that region but maybe I'm just not educated well-enough about their history. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Hindutva or Islamist moron somewhere but Sikhs seem generally cool.
 

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Will watch on weekend , any reviews ?
Only movie which sets some high standards which war cum intelligence drama was Madras Cafe ( I watched that movie 7-8 times)
Madras Cafe was brilliant. I saw shershaah, mostly forwarded the romantic track. But it's well made and resonates well.
 

Ryder

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I find that Sikhs are usually the least prone to extremism among the three major religions of that region but maybe I'm just not educated well-enough about their history. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Hindutva or Islamist moron somewhere but Sikhs seem generally cool.

Dude the Sikhs roasted a Muslim guy just for eating beef during Sikh rule.
 

Ryder

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Anybody can be extreme since the Muslims oppressed the Sikhs.

The Sikhs were dishing out there opression on the Muslims they ruled.

Really fcked how a guy got roasted just for eating beef.

Honestly it seems relations between Muslims and Sikhs tend to be mutual. I think im really ignorant of the whole Indian Subcontinent. I hope Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi members can explain.

All I know is Babur the Turkic conqueror.

God that man was such a chad he went to battle while drinking alcohol this would make Salafists head blow 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Mind you I dont drink but such a chad move.
 

Ryder

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Huh, really? I thought Sikhs didn't have that veneration for cows that Hindus do.

A similar punishment was handed out in Peshawar. “An unfortunate Mussulman, at Peshawur, was found guilty of eating roast beef; the Sikhs kindled a large fire, placed their victim within the circle they formed around it, prevented his escape by thrusting pointed sticks at him, and so burnt him alive.”
 

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Nilgiri

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you can label people all you want if that makes you feel better, undisputed fact is that hindutva nacism is on the rise and threatening, your waffling around the bush will not change it. clean your house first then talk from higher ground like you have some objective opinion.



Since you prefer to quote me this time, I will quote you.

You (and others) can spotlight any snapshot whatever you want and correlate it to "Nazism" however you want to.

Countries that are open to do so, that have the media and systems to do so in first place...readily insert into this process.

It can be done so for Turkey, US, France....almost any country that is not totalitarian and large enough culturally/historically.

We can argue about the degrees and contexts among them, but that requires a common principle on what authoritarianism is and what totalitarianism is....precisely the scales involved and evidence needed.

My larger point on the principle is we will have to see anyone using the "Nazi" term, apply it at the appropriate level first and readily to the country with the physical scale and network of concentration camps for a particular minority.

These concentration camps did not exist before, they are new visceral proportion...and can be seen from space.

If you do not do so, but instead deflect to apologism and/or some hypocritical sense of realism in that case....well then you own your credibility on everything else past it too (when you use Nazi selectively there).

If every country more broadly makes large trade relationship (including Turkey, and especially given the victims in these camps are Turkic) with such a totalitarian system....

....surely it comes off as doubly hypocritical to then make agreement with extremists spouting "Gog and Magog" and "Dhul-Qarnain" selectively .....clearly on the far lower scale of it to any rational eyes, and thus purely by personal animus investiture to do so in first degree.

....or in your case "Nazi" and "I don't want to party spoil but....."

The apologism you make and continue to make on this totalitarian system, given its clear scale of visible actual Nazism in effect....is supposed to be lost on the audience?

The remote sensing and refugee testimony (right within Turkey) can be ignored by you as you please of course...but you are the one that has sermoned here multiple times to others to ignore it and be OK with it.

The extremist islamist (your buddy you hit like for) goes even further in saying its all propaganda to begin with....like the pork-loving CCP is a mullah with wonderful ordained pristine fatwa to be followed.

So really your credibility versus hypocrisy is there for all to see and take stock of. I don't need to add to it.

There is simply a whole lot of things you either do not know or choose to ignore...when you go down the islamist route (past this CCP one).

Since you brought in Pakistan and Bangladesh being more "green".....to contrast with "Nazifying" India or whatever..

A) What is the impact and legacy of the Objective Resolutions (1949) in Pakistan?

B) Why is Bangladesh no longer East Pakistan?...and the legacy of the political party (attaching itself to the dictator) in Pakistan involved in that at the time? The synthesis of left-wing ethnic populism and mullah-takfiri principles under autocratic stewardship surely played a role?

C) What is the role and legacy of Zia Ul Haq (and the coterie of islamist parties and movements he spawned along with Saudi funding at the basic school level)?

It's easy to label Nazi when you are the perceived victim (after taking shade under the umbrella of islamism).

Any of A, B and C comes up for similar use of Nazi?....on simple equivalency?...especially given materialised results (number and scale).

Or it gets whitewashed away and a pass?

Like how you will readily make common cause with Rohingya plight.....but suddenly there is an obstinacy and "look other way" when discussion of Bengalis facing the same Rohingya existential situation in their own homeland comes up.....simply because you have to "brother" "apologism" to umpteenth degree for the residual of greater relevance to you.

We are not supposed to call you hypocrite right?

Islamism and Nationalism are just 100% congruent after all when you have Muslim majority country....right?

You need not answer this stuff, its not even meant for you to answer....but for the others to read and research if they would like.

Many of them have long seen "party spoiled" along with full stepping on cake by indulgence in too much "faith brother" complex....involving many of the above points and many more in earlier forum run by "faith brother".

Giving a pass to "faith brother" because of "faith" and "brother"....generally leads to rational types questioning both air quotes.

The cake being stepped on (leading to creation of this forum in the first place) is maybe quite coincidental with the level of cringe seen in the mobs of mouth-breathing islamist coterie from such faith brother place cringing up all the Ertugul hangout spots.

You leave people to be, and they show you what they really are eventually.
 

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