Oh, I've been through the mill, but recovering very slowly.Hey Joe , Hope you are doing fine , How is your health ?
Be careful , be safe from covid
We need to talk. Perhaps tomorrow? Day after?
Oh, I've been through the mill, but recovering very slowly.Hey Joe , Hope you are doing fine , How is your health ?
Be careful , be safe from covid
Roger thatOh, I've been through the mill, but recovering very slowly.
We need to talk. Perhaps tomorrow? Day after?
What a fascinating point of view!@Nilgiri
Well, one of my biggest questions is about the background of this group of young Indians. How representative is this group of people from a socioeconomical point of view actually?
Do they belong to higher income segments of the society? Again, why is there never any South Indian present in these debates?
I would like to know very, very much how South Indians think about this issue. I feel like they're more tolerant when it comes to Indian Muslims.
Generally speaking, I hear rarely criticism from Muslims of the Subcontinent that aims specifically at South Indians. I mean, even the scientific community has barely produced any studies examining the relationship between mostly North Indian Muslims and South Indian Hindus. It's a very fascinating topic actually.
Well, one of my biggest questions is about the background of this group of young Indians. How representative is this group of people from a socioeconomical point of view actually?
In general, the division across India is that 40% are upper caste Hindus, 20% are Dalit, 17% (or a little more) are Muslims, and the balance, about 23%, are constituted of tribal people in central and north-eastern India, and Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains.Do they belong to higher income segments of the society? Again, why is there never any South Indian present in these debates?
Oh, I've been through the mill, but recovering very slowly.
We need to talk. Perhaps tomorrow? Day after?
Have a heart. I've been unwell.@Joe Shearer better be around on this forum atleast. Dont disappear.
That may be true, what you have stated, in some parts of the country. In Calcutta and in Hyderabad, in Kerala, in Tamil Nadu, by and large. It is EMPHATICALLY not true of UP, or even of MP, or Rajasthan, or Haryana, or Uttarakhand, or Bihar. The situation in those states is extremely dangerous and volatile. Trying to underplay or downplay it, trying to shift the blame on to the media, is thoroughly unrealistic.
good to hear your ok.Have a heart. I've been unwell.
Not as bad, or as life-threatening as others, but it wasn't good.
Now I'm here for good. May not post as much as on PDF, but that's because of health reasons.
Well, one of my biggest questions is about the background of this group of young Indians. How representative is this group of people from a socioeconomical point of view actually?
Do they belong to higher income segments of the society? Again, why is there never any South Indian present in these debates?
I would like to know very, very much how South Indians think about this issue. I feel like they're more tolerant when it comes to Indian Muslims.
Generally speaking, I hear rarely criticism from Muslims of the Subcontinent that aims specifically at South Indians. I mean, even the scientific community has barely produced any studies examining the relationship between mostly North Indian Muslims and South Indian Hindus. It's a very fascinating topic actually.
Even in TN, friction exists in places like Coimbatore and Ramanathapuram districts (with sig Muslim population) and Kanniyakumari (Christian population).
That is a very balanced summary. I didn't mention Coimbatore because it is such an unholy mess, one that I know was deliberately created as a safe haven by extremists. Now, however, there is a back-lash (you obviously know all this) and the Hindi-speaking set have started throwing their weight around. Not a good development.The friction has always been there in UP due to history left over by Ayodhya or Kashi or Mathura. Riots have taken place long before BJP won 2 seats. Even in TN, friction exists in places like Coimbatore and Ramanathapuram districts (with sig Muslim population) and Kanniyakumari (Christian population).
But the overall atmosphere around the country in large. The event in Haridwar was so "seditional" pretty surprised that no arrests have even taken place yet. And they contribute to the atmosphere of fear.
The one state I would have to agree with you is UP. I thought Yogi would be a nice change. It's sickening sometimes to see his behavior. And some wadis have to see him as PM. That is something I hope it never happens.
Better, champ, not OK. I can't walk about for more than a few minutes, about fifteen or twenty minutes on a good day.good to hear your ok.
Stunning.Hope you read Joe's reply above. It gives lot of useful context to the larger picture.
I will add a few specific answers from my end to try comes at it from another angle.
How representative this group of people is?
...well 50/50 but that is a catch 22 situation at some point you need to collect a group of viewpoints and let them flesh it out (a topic so vast and complex and emotive) in just 20 minutes.
I would say the 20 minutes is the more restricting factor as are a lot of the sentence soundbites in parts that each could provide hours of discussion by themselves.
I guess they all seem to be well-to-do students mostly....from the upper crust overall. But that comes with territory of this video's objective to get a debate in english with enough substance in 20 minutes at the same time.
I would venture a South Indian is not present because the tension/flashpoint/conflagration can for all intents and purposes be represented almost entirely by "Northies" IMO....fairly adequately.
I mean its 50/50 in first place by Hindu and Muslim participation.....rather than 80% vs 13% (or whatever it is) i.e 1 muslim and 6 Hindu ratio like the raw population would mandate.
But in interest of a more proper debate objetive, we make allowances past perfect representation.
I'm sure other panels, videos and debates have Southies....especially if another set of identity politics debate warrants it.
By and large, religious minorities (Muslims, Christians, others) are lot more integrated (for lack of a better term) in the South.
We are no stranger to the chain of resentment --->suspicion ---->fear------>hate ------>violence
But it does not manifest (at least in the escalatory aspect of it) in the religion paradigm as there is often heavier ethnic based synthesis.
I can see it all through my family and close friends (from South) in varying degrees for example....but there is always generally a heavy lid to keep that simmering pot under control till another issue comes up to replace it attention wise (and we Southies have many particular to just us).
There is always a sound bedrock for us to come together on things that cannot be cleaved so easily.
As I grew up as kid I was privy to lot of it from earlier era....just a tiny sliver of examples:
My mom fondly remembering both muslim and christian classmates when she was a kid.
My father always when bringing up his issues/problems with Nehru by saying he got 2 things right: Secularism and Nuclear program
I remember when my (miserly but much missed) grandpa (finally) got a TV in the 1990s when we visited....and one of musical performances broadcasted that I relished with him was by very well respected and beloved (by all our communities) Muslim singer Nagore Hanifa....whos songs reverberated deeply in universal message that reached to everyone in the end.
The nagore dargah itself is something of well-entrenched cultural institution well revered by all communities again.
Our heyday of Tamil Cinema (when not occupied by the escapism theme prevalent in the time) had some wonderful secular-message oriented movies.
In this one the lyrics are so simple yet deep and profound....the character riding the bike is Muslim (the movie is about kids that are separated by tragedies, growing up in different households of different faiths)... but his summary on the human reality in this song is one that anyone can find and share:
Since the dawn of time to this day....the sky hasn't changed...
neither has the moon, fish in the sea, the air, the ground, gardens, rivers etc etc
But man has changed (manithan maraivittan)....by climbing religion....(mathathil yerivittan)
The rest of the lyrics are about how that changes man's nature and character....even though he is capable of great things.
As I like to tell people I do not know (close and personal enough) much of India above the Deccan.
On many such issues (directly or proxy) there was big culture clash when I first made friends with larger numbers of North Indians (in my high school and university both outside India) than I had ever previously (my upbringing on foreign shores is very strange and protracted one).
They are very diverse group as well when it comes to these matters you bring up, I wont paint them with a broad brushstroke.
One of best North Indian friends I have is actually from UP, from gorakhpur.... a fairly devout Hindu (much more than I am).....he was very early (for me) quick to give foreboding caution+warning (and project quite accurately in 2013 iirc) what a BJP-Modi administration will do for India and UP quite specifically.
But past good people like him (of which there are many, you cannot dismiss them), the results bear out in states just how much of the escalatory chain realises and sustains now....there is enough (Among their powerful) to impress on them and there is enough in them (the people) to harness on it. Sad.
Before I get into more details I will see if you progress this conversation with Joe first. There can sometimes be some general culture clash when a North Indian in general comes to South (as he does not know the local language which we value very highly combined with general culture and society knowhow).
Religion does not play such big role in that....we have Kerala for example where Hindus are 50%? and Muslims and Christians split the rest....(I forgot the numbers).
I do consider myself as a person who knows more about India ('s policies) than the average citizen in the developed world. However, even I need to realize from time to time how enormous and big India actually is. It is like learning about Europe and European history not by looking at one country at the time but reading, watching and hearing all countries stories at once and on top of that, "the many Indias" are pretty much intertwined.What a fascinating point of view!
Without pretending to offer a complete answer, here are a few random thoughts.
In general, the division across India is that 40% are upper caste Hindus, 20% are Dalit, 17% (or a little more) are Muslims, and the balance, about 23%, are constituted of tribal people in central and north-eastern India, and Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains.
Most of the students in Indian colleges and universities and institutions of higher learning are from the upper castes, with a few from the rest of the population.
Competition is intense; this is sometimes used as a blanket by those who do not wish to acknowledge that they are privileged, and that others are less privileged. So the factor of intense competition is brought up, but this is a fallacy, since it is competition among the 40% for a very limited number of seats.
Coming to south Indian as against north Indian, I believe that I am a fair and neutral and detached observer; both we and the western Indians - Gujaratis, for instance, on that side, Bengalis, Odiyas, Assamese and a host of others in the east - tend to be overlooked by those who see India in terms of the north-south binary. South India is best defined as the states - provinces - of Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Each of these states differs in social consciousness and there are even major differences within them, so that may give you a flavour of the difficulty in coming to aggregating the thinking and the conditions in India.
The south was dominated by Tamil Nadu, and the Tamils are the hard core of the south; that will mightily annoy Kannadigas (people from Karnataka) or Telugus (people from Telangana and Andhra) but it is a fact, notwithstanding the vast empires that have been built by these Kannadigas and Telugus. The people of Kerala are considered among the most socially sensitised among Indians (it hurts to admit this, but it is largely true). Just to confuse things, there are Tamils in Kerala as well, settled there for centuries; in fact, the two languages, Malayalam in Kerala and Tamil in Tamil Nadu, separated from each other a mere three centuries ago. Something like Finnish and Magyar separating out from a common root.
People tend to stick to educational institutions in their own part of the country, although it is also true that there are those who have travelled across the country for their education. So, too, people in these talk shows tend to be from a few locations; if the organiser of the show is from the north, people in it will tend to be from the north.
As you have spotted, the Hindu-Muslim issue is less - not absent, less - in the south than in the north, where the pain point is the province of Uttar Pradesh. As a result, media people in the south have less reason to promote programmes on these issues. What is happening in Karnataka is an anomaly; it is a BJP government that bribed its way to power, that is insecure, and that is making every effort to stay in power, with all the religious demagoguery that goes with such efforts.
More, after you have had a chance to look at this.
Hope you read Joe's reply above. It gives lot of useful context to the larger picture.
I will add a few specific answers from my end to try comes at it from another angle.
How representative this group of people is?
...well 50/50 but that is a catch 22 situation at some point you need to collect a group of viewpoints and let them flesh it out (a topic so vast and complex and emotive) in just 20 minutes.
I would say the 20 minutes is the more restricting factor as are a lot of the sentence soundbites in parts that each could provide hours of discussion by themselves.
I guess they all seem to be well-to-do students mostly....from the upper crust overall. But that comes with territory of this video's objective to get a debate in english with enough substance in 20 minutes at the same time.
I would venture a South Indian is not present because the tension/flashpoint/conflagration can for all intents and purposes be represented almost entirely by "Northies" IMO....fairly adequately.
I mean its 50/50 in first place by Hindu and Muslim participation.....rather than 80% vs 13% (or whatever it is) i.e 1 muslim and 6 Hindu ratio like the raw population would mandate.
But in interest of a more proper debate objetive, we make allowances past perfect representation.
I'm sure other panels, videos and debates have Southies....especially if another set of identity politics debate warrants it.
By and large, religious minorities (Muslims, Christians, others) are lot more integrated (for lack of a better term) in the South.
We are no stranger to the chain of resentment --->suspicion ---->fear------>hate ------>violence
But it does not manifest (at least in the escalatory aspect of it) in the religion paradigm as there is often heavier ethnic based synthesis.
I can see it all through my family and close friends (from South) in varying degrees for example....but there is always generally a heavy lid to keep that simmering pot under control till another issue comes up to replace it attention wise (and we Southies have many particular to just us).
There is always a sound bedrock for us to come together on things that cannot be cleaved so easily.
As I grew up as kid I was privy to lot of it from earlier era....just a tiny sliver of examples:
My mom fondly remembering both muslim and christian classmates when she was a kid.
My father always when bringing up his issues/problems with Nehru by saying he got 2 things right: Secularism and Nuclear program
I remember when my (miserly but much missed) grandpa (finally) got a TV in the 1990s when we visited....and one of musical performances broadcasted that I relished with him was by very well respected and beloved (by all our communities) Muslim singer Nagore Hanifa....whos songs reverberated deeply in universal message that reached to everyone in the end.
The nagore dargah itself is something of well-entrenched cultural institution well revered by all communities again.
Our heyday of Tamil Cinema (when not occupied by the escapism theme prevalent in the time) had some wonderful secular-message oriented movies.
In this one the lyrics are so simple yet deep and profound....the character riding the bike is Muslim (the movie is about kids that are separated by tragedies, growing up in different households of different faiths)... but his summary on the human reality in this song is one that anyone can find and share:
Since the dawn of time to this day....the sky hasn't changed...
neither has the moon, fish in the sea, the air, the ground, gardens, rivers etc etc
But man has changed (manithan maraivittan)....by climbing religion....(mathathil yerivittan)
The rest of the lyrics are about how that changes man's nature and character....even though he is capable of great things.
As I like to tell people I do not know (close and personal enough) much of India above the Deccan.
On many such issues (directly or proxy) there was big culture clash when I first made friends with larger numbers of North Indians (in my high school and university both outside India) than I had ever previously (my upbringing on foreign shores is very strange and protracted one).
They are very diverse group as well when it comes to these matters you bring up, I wont paint them with a broad brushstroke.
One of best North Indian friends I have is actually from UP, from gorakhpur.... a fairly devout Hindu (much more than I am).....he was very early (for me) quick to give foreboding caution+warning (and project quite accurately in 2013 iirc) what a BJP-Modi administration will do for India and UP quite specifically.
But past good people like him (of which there are many, you cannot dismiss them), the results bear out in states just how much of the escalatory chain realises and sustains now....there is enough (Among their powerful) to impress on them and there is enough in them (the people) to harness on it. Sad.
Before I get into more details I will see if you progress this conversation with Joe first. There can sometimes be some general culture clash when a North Indian in general comes to South (as he does not know the local language which we value very highly combined with general culture and society knowhow).
Religion does not play such big role in that....we have Kerala for example where Hindus are 50%? and Muslims and Christians split the rest....(I forgot the numbers).
Isn't that the actress from Pushpak? What a superb movie that was.
Stunning.
Looking forward with a broad smile of anticipation to the answer. @Nilgiri is perhaps the only member who can comment with equal facility on south, north and east India, as well as on China, the southern part as well as the metropolitan north, and now, on contemporary north America.Thanks for the "Southern" perspective. I didn't know that the percentage of Muslims is as high as 25 in Kerala. Thanks to the media, you get this picture of Indian Muslims only living in North India which ofc does not reflect the reality. That being said, I'm suprised that even a well-educated person like you came in touch with North Indians quite late in his life. I wonder if this is also the case with the Chinese society and its own socio-geopgraphical inner dynamics.
If you come to India, physically, and walk about one of its cities, preferably Mumbai, or New Delhi, Hyderabad, and Bangalore, or even Kolkata or Chennai, you will learn very, very quickly exactly how complex and diverse is Indian society. Trust me, it is impossible to get even a clue about it from external sources. You will find that it is completely impossible to predict where the next person you meet comes from, what language he or she speaks, what religion that person believes in (other than very broad signifiers), and what diet that person prefers.I do consider myself as a person who knows more about India ('s policies) than the average citizen in the developed world. However, even I need to realize from time to time how enormous and big India actually is. It is like learning about Europe and European history not by looking at one country at the time but reading, watching and hearing all countries stories at once and on top of that, "the many Indias" are pretty much intertwined.
Join the club.There are so many lines of conflict in the Indian society that I can hardly keep track of all of them. Political, religious, ethnic, historical, cultural, geographical and linguistic breaking points make the country so complicated.
Sometimes we Bengalis do think about this, and have never completely understood what we are doing here. Look up what the Bangladeshi celebrates on the 25th of May, and you will get a whiff of the puzzlement that the Tamils and the Punjabis endure when they think of us, never mind that we are a superior race to be humbly respected, and given pride of place at all times!!!Sometimes I wonder how the country is still existing. I mean, any other country would have ceased to exist. But perhaps these differences are the glue that holds the country together? Why are a Bengali, a Tamil and a Punjabi sharing a country? It is hard to understand for an outsider like me. These questions are posed in the most respectful and reverential way possible. I just try to understand.
This is SO complex, I will not even try to answer here and now. If you are seriously interested, and if Nilgiri permits, I will launch on a multi-part answer that will land up addressing the surface of the issues involved. I seek Nilgiri's permission because he has this knack of putting things in orderly fashion, and of remaining dispassionate about the issues involved.I'm also interested in the relationship between Dalits and Muslims. I struggle to position the Muslims within the larger picture of the Hindu-majority society. Do upper caste Hindus treat Muslims and Dalits the same? I know that Muslims are not Hindus. I'm more interested in the day-to-day-life, the reality on the ground. Do upper caste Hindus avoid contact with Muslims like they do with Dalits? Are Muslims seen as "the prodigal son" of Mother India? Let's say I - as a Muslim - decide to convert to Hinduism. Which caste do I get assigned to?