TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[MADDOG]

Doesn't matter what it is. This country needs to face reality. We are in no shape to develop and produce an engine on the same level of the F110 under 15 years. Instead of waisting more and more time and continuing to sabotage the Armed Forces how about some people get their head out of the sand and sign a deal with RR.

CEOs coming out and making ridiculous statements of developing an engine in 5 1/2 years in the 30000lbf+ class which will adhered to 5th gen characteristic is nothing but propaganda for the simple minded. Don't make me laugh.

People argue about exports without the fighter even having flown for the first time. How about we think what is best for the TurAF instead of possible exports. We have an aging F-16 Fleet meanwhile the countries around us are arming up to the teeth. And out "leaders" are talking like men in a cafe about building engines in 5 years.

RR is offering us the best option. Sign the damn deal have them develop an engine with Turkish Engineers for TF-X meanwhile a Turkish consortium can be tasked with developing engines and actually take its time to do so (10-15 years)

I agree

 

[MADDOG]

Onto some more positive matters then... Here is more of the simulator. The pointy nose is clear to everyone. They've updated the design for the sim, they aren't using the design present on the mock-up. TAI is surprising me nowadays.

 

[Rodeo]

Doesn't matter what it is. This country needs to face reality. We are in no shape to develop and produce an engine on the same level of the F110 under 15 years. Instead of waisting more and more time and continuing to sabotage the Armed Forces how about some people get their head out of the sand and sign a deal with RR.

CEOs coming out and making ridiculous statements of developing an engine in 5 1/2 years in the 30000lbf+ class which will adhered to 5th gen characteristic is nothing but propaganda for the simple minded. Don't make me laugh.

People argue about exports without the fighter even having flown for the first time. How about we think what is best for the TurAF instead of possible exports. We have an aging F-16 Fleet meanwhile the countries around us are arming up to the teeth. And out "leaders" are talking like men in a cafe about building engines in 5 years.

RR is offering us the best option. Sign the damn deal have them develop an engine with Turkish Engineers for TF-X meanwhile a Turkish consortium can be tasked with developing engines and actually take its time to do so (10-15 years)

It sends shivers down my spine to think of the possibility that TFX might end up like ALTAY tank. An airplane without an engine is scrap metal. I hope they accept RR's offer and proceed. We can always develop the engine ourselves in more reasonable timelines. RR engine would be our fallback option in case we're not on time.

 

[Nutuk]

I don't have any clue about engine development, but I am also sceptical about the comon thinking that developing engines would take 10 years.

The same ideas were uttered about developing a tank, many voiced that would take more than 10 years, well the tank was developed in a couple of years but producing it turned out to be more of a challenge, such an incompetence just shameful

 

[Zafer]

PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) in their reports always calculate it in terms of monetary values; Value of goods locally procured against value of goods imported to complete a product.
So if a plane cost you 100 million dollars to make. And the engines, paint, some raw materials and avionic sub systems purchased from abroad in the making of the airplane came to say 40million dollars then the plane is 60% locally produced.

For individual products it is straight forward but for industry average considering new capabilities that are destined to come online for the first time it is harder to make today's calculations as they will be factored in when they are realized.

 

[Nilgiri]

PWC (Price Waterhouse Coopers) in their reports always calculate it in terms of monetary values; Value of goods locally procured against value of goods imported to complete a product.
So if a plane cost you 100 million dollars to make. And the engines, paint, some raw materials and avionic sub systems purchased from abroad in the making of the airplane came to say 40million dollars then the plane is 60% locally produced.

Known generally as value addition. It is essentially summation of your labour, investment repayment+commitments and profit. i.e everything that is under your ambit + decision making.

In pratt canada, we do this extensively to get sense of our most profitable streams of activity that we can rely upon to leverage into newer investment-intensive streams.

i.e the input side depends on frame of reference (the specific company or ecosystem/country as whole)....

As manufacturer, we are very capital-intensive overall....so our price/earning ratio on the stock market is quite low (in the teens) when the average listing in North America tends to be 100+...given the large service and IT sectors that are not capital intensive.

 

[Huelague]

There is no way we can make a JET engine 6 years

We won’t not do it from the scratch. TEI and other companies have some experiences for years. Don’t know if these experiences are enough, but we are not absolutely beginners.

 

[Huelague]

1,8 mach max speed @40k feet is the requirement of the airforce. The final maximum speed will be closely tied to the specs of the available engine(s).

I read elsewhere it increased to 2.1 Mach.

 

[Hasanrize]

Rolls-Royce comes with a new engine, which was designed in 18 months. They might offer production under license in TAEC. The timeline Temel Kotil gave might be correct, depending on the perspective. We must remember he is being quite technical sometimes for the general public. The design part of an engine might be quick, but the longer part will be the testing. Like TS1400 was designed very quickly however we are still waiting for human rate testings to be finished. Probably he meant for that. Come with a prototype. It is like the 1500 BG BATU tank engine is working, but we still need more time to see it in the tanks.

I think we must accept whatever Rolls-Royce offers (ofc it should be a proper one, not civil-derived tech from the 1960s) and give TEI to the production of another domestic one. It will be more expensive, but we are trying to make a fucking 5th gen that can upgrade the 6th gen in the future. We need to remember that TEI is 40% belongs to GE, so that they might get some behind-the-door agreement.

 

[Windchime]

So a variable cycle engine?

Seems to be a normal turbofan engine with fixed BP ratio.

Ooh fuck, no RR now

Ok, we might not get shit from RR I can understand.

But wtf is TRMotor? Why not give it to TEI, which is already developing engines for other platforms?

Not a single person outside of Türkiye have thought that Turkish demands are realistic. Not a single company or country in the world would agree to develop something as advanced as a gas turbine and then just forgo of its IP control. It's just downright delusional to think that could work. There were only 2 real cases of a country transferring major in-service, let alone leading edge gas turbine related technology to a less developed country; both of them were rather special cases. When negotiations stalled a few years ago it was the same story; Turks believed it was solely due to Qatari involvement but the reality was both the Qatari involvement and Turkish terms, that demanded their partners to relinquish their IPs, were causing problems. It was then, it is now. So Turkish officials should choose to either receive significant RR input but stop demanding full IP rights or design bulk of the engine on their own without significant RR help.

I also have got questions to why the Turks are still bothering with this TR Motor scheme. It just looks downright unnecessary when there is a company as qualified and experienced as TEI. I mean, TR Motor is now also 100% owned by TUSAS so what's the point for TUSAS to own 2 separate gas turbine companies? I've heard TR Motor is only a design bureau but TEI seems to be just as qualified in designing a gas turbine as manufacturing one. I mean, they are the ones who've designed TF6000 and are manufacturing its prototype. The problem might be GE's 50% stake in the company, but GE's stake in TEI doesn't necessarily mean direct US control, nonetheless. Also, what is TR Motor actually doing nowadays? What's publicly known is that they are designing the turbofan for MMU, but RR's being tied with TAEC, not TR Motor. It's also the Turkish government that is pitching potential opportunities with RR not RR themselves. That means the Turkish government is funding and supporting a development of turbofan in TR Motor all the while inquiring and negotiating with RR so that they could potentially collaborate with a different company (TAEC/Kale)? That sounds ridiculous. In that case they should choose one of either TR Motor(keep things under TUSAS control) or TAEC(diversify industry participation) on who would work with RR.

I am all for a TRMotor developed domestic engine. It is also a matter of national pride to have such an engine other than being a matter of national security. It won't matter if a first iteration engine may not be satisfactory, we keep trying until we make it.

An unfinished first iteration would either : a. cripple MMU block 1, b. delay introduction of MMU by several years or c. force TuAF to acquire MMU with F110, which seems to be exactly what the Turks are trying to avoid.

We can do an improved copy of the F110 GE129

and drop a nuke on US-Türkiye relations in the process and eliminate most if not all the export opportunities for MMU. Even when there are sufficient manufacturing technology in hand, a developing gas turbine industry still has 3 problems in designing their own model. 1. they might lack experience in a clean sheet design and get lost 2. they have to circumvent existing patents and IPs 3. they have to become able to test and evaluate their own models. By copying F110 you are crossing the line of what could be done and what shouldn't in terms of number 2. There's a reason Turkish officials didn't choose that seemingly easier path and instead are trying their very best to design their own engine and find a foreign partner apart from the US.

Remember, the entire Turkish fighter jet and AEW&C fleet relies on US engines, avionics (except for Özgür in the future) and other component, just like other significant parts of Turkish military's backbone. Özgür itself is only possible because US provided source codes to Türkiye. Hürjet will fly with US F404 and MMU prototypes with F110. US can cripple Turkish military, especially TuAF quick and swift. When S-400 led to Turkish exclusion from the JSF, which you guys deeply despise, you wouldn't even want to imagine what will happen if theft of US IP, not any other IP but a gas turbine IP, is on the line.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Let's remember TEI general manager Mr. Akşit's interview done 2 months ago.

"TEI has now reached the capacity to develop a 35000lb engine with the investments (projects, materials, technology, R&D) it has made in the last 7-8 years. We are confident in ourselves"

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Not a single person outside of Türkiye have thought that Turkish demands are realistic. Not a single company or country in the world would agree to develop something as advanced as a gas turbine and then just forgo of its IP control. It's just downright delusional to think that could work.

Even if RR partnership is realized, the turbine section and single crystal blades that can withstand 1700-2000 degrees will be produced with the knowledge of Turkish companies. No one in the world shares the technology of this critical part with another country. The head of Turkish defence industry have clarified this situation.

 

[Windchime]

Even if RR partnership is realized, the turbine section and single crystal blades that can withstand 1700-2000 degrees will be produced with the knowledge of Turkish companies. No one in the world shares the technology of this critical part with another country. The head of Turkish defence industry have clarified this situation.

Let's remember TEI general manager Mr. Akşit's interview done 2 months ago.

"TEI has now reached the capacity to develop a 35000lb engine with the investments (projects, materials, technology, R&D) it has made in the last 7-8 years. We are confident in ourselves"

Yes, exactly. Well I'm not able to judge on TEI or Kale's exact capabilities, but based on their claims, just give the damned project to either TEI(if RR deal falls off)or TAEC(if RR deal goes through) and let them handle it. I don't see any point of having TR Motor involved, especially(again) when they are 100% owned by TUSAS.

 

[Zafer]

The problem might be GE's 50% stake in the company, but GE's stake in TEI doesn't necessarily mean direct US control, nonetheless. Also, what is TR Motor actually doing nowadays? What's publicly known is that they are designing the turbofan for MMU, but RR's being tied with TAEC, not TR Motor. It's also the Turkish government that is pitching potential opportunities with RR not RR themselves. That means the Turkish government is funding and supporting a development of turbofan in TR Motor all the while inquiring and negotiating with RR so that they could potentially collaborate with a different company (TAEC/Kale)? That sounds ridiculous. In that case they should choose one of either TR Motor(keep things under TUSAS control) or TAEC(diversify industry participation) on who would work with RR.

Yes, exactly. Well I'm not able to judge on TEI or Kale's exact capabilities, but based on their claims, just give the damned project to either TEI(if RR deal falls off)or TAEC(if RR deal goes through) and let them handle it. I don't see any point of having TR Motor involved, especially(again) when they are 100% owned by TUSAS.

Obviously SSB does not want to miss out on what RR can bring to the table while also not lose control of IP rights of the engine. RR will only design the engine and not be involved in production. I would simply take the risk of delays and go solo with TR Motor. The more unrelated to foreign makers the better.

 

[Hasanrize]

Seems to be a normal turbofan engine with fixed BP ratio.



Not a single person outside of Türkiye have thought that Turkish demands are realistic. Not a single company or country in the world would agree to develop something as advanced as a gas turbine and then just forgo of its IP control. It's just downright delusional to think that could work. There were only 2 real cases of a country transferring major in-service, let alone leading edge gas turbine related technology to a less developed country; both of them were rather special cases. When negotiations stalled a few years ago it was the same story; Turks believed it was solely due to Qatari involvement but the reality was both the Qatari involvement and Turkish terms, that demanded their partners to relinquish their IPs, were causing problems. It was then, it is now. So Turkish officials should choose to either receive significant RR input but stop demanding full IP rights or design bulk of the engine on their own without significant RR help.

I also have got questions to why the Turks are still bothering with this TR Motor scheme. It just looks downright unnecessary when there is a company as qualified and experienced as TEI. I mean, TR Motor is now also 100% owned by TUSAS so what's the point for TUSAS to own 2 separate gas turbine companies? I've heard TR Motor is only a design bureau but TEI seems to be just as qualified in designing a gas turbine as manufacturing one. I mean, they are the ones who've designed TF6000 and are manufacturing its prototype. The problem might be GE's 50% stake in the company, but GE's stake in TEI doesn't necessarily mean direct US control, nonetheless. Also, what is TR Motor actually doing nowadays? What's publicly known is that they are designing the turbofan for MMU, but RR's being tied with TAEC, not TR Motor. It's also the Turkish government that is pitching potential opportunities with RR not RR themselves. That means the Turkish government is funding and supporting a development of turbofan in TR Motor all the while inquiring and negotiating with RR so that they could potentially collaborate with a different company (TAEC/Kale)? That sounds ridiculous. In that case they should choose one of either TR Motor(keep things under TUSAS control) or TAEC(diversify industry participation) on who would work with RR.

The Turkish defense industry has a very big problem regarding foreign components. They keep providing components during the design and prototype phases. But then refused to sell them when the project reached the mass production phase.

This is what happened during Altay Project; even with the Korean engine, the tank had to be redesigned.
That happened smart micro munition project, we had to go back to the drawing board.
Only God knows how often drones got back to the design stage because some guy abroad refused to sell 50$ parts, so that section had to be redesigned.
Also, there are huge export restrictions. T129 Atak couldn't be sold to Pakistan because of USA refused to provide the engine. Eventually, China sold helicopters to Pakistan.

So, we come to TF-X. What can we do if Rolls-Royce refuses to sell engines when it comes to mass production? Returning TF-X to the design stage and going for another ten years because of engine issue is not something Turkey can stomach. There is simply no room for another Altay situation. And almost 70% of Turkish people are simply sure that the USA is not going to sell F-110 when it comes to mass production. That is the reason why Turkey insists on IP rights.

 

[Yasar_TR]

In English there is a saying; “Beggars can’t be choosers”
When translated in to one’s own language it is crude and rather demeaning. But in English when used in context it is just a way of expressing that when you have no other choice you have to accept what you are given.
We have no way of producing a stealthy turbofan engine that will propel TFX and be ready for serial production before post 2033. Even then it is a bit suspect. The only option we have in hand at the moment is RR/Kale producing an engine. If they want to hang on to IP rights, let them. But the important point is to produce an engine freely for our plane and have no restrictions on sale to third parties.
The know how and experience we will gather from the production of this engine will pave the way to the production of our own indigenous turbofan engine, just like CT-800 being produced under license paved the way for TS-1400.

 

[Zafer]

In English there is a saying; “Beggars can’t be choosers”
When translated in to one’s own language it is crude and rather demeaning. But in English when used in context it is just a way of expressing that when you have no other choice you have to accept what you are given.
We have no way of producing a stealthy turbofan engine that will propel TFX and be ready for serial production before post 2033. Even then it is a bit suspect. The only option we have in hand at the moment is RR/Kale producing an engine. If they want to hang on to IP rights, let them. But the important point is to produce an engine freely for our plane and have no restrictions on sale to third parties.
The know how and experience we will gather from the production of this engine will pave the way to the production of our own indigenous turbofan engine, just like CT-800 being produced under license paved the way for TS-1400.

There is undisclosed information about capabilities of Türkiye, I wouldn't say that we have no capabilities to achieve the objectives before 2033 when the chiefs of the industry say they can.

We can go for what suits us rather than take whatever offer is given to us.
We should never try to obtain what we can not obtain with national resources anyway.
The only thing we need to strive to do is to improve our capabilities every passing day.
Delays are always acceptable, there is no pressing circumstances where we must have a certain capability before a deadline. And the capability we are looking to obtain will not likely be used against the nonexistent eastern block. Are we looking to get capabilites which we might use against the people we are asking to get them from, that would be ridiculous.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Zafer
Yes the chief of the TAI says in fact that “by 2028 TR Motor will have completed the design development of the indigenous engine for TFX” .

Quote:
Öte yandan 2028’e kadar da iştirakimiz olan TR Motor şirketimiz yerli motoru geliştirmiş olacak.
Kaynak: haber.aero
unquote.

Since this design bureau doesn’t have capability to manufacture the completed design, it will be given to a third party manufacturing plant like TEI to produce the engine. Looking at the timeline of a simpler engine like TS1400; By the time the tests are completed and the serial production stage is reached we will at best see post 2033.

 

[Manomed]

@Zafer
Yes the chief of the TAI says in fact that “by 2028 TR Motor will have completed the design development of the indigenous engine for TFX” .

Quote:
Öte yandan 2028’e kadar da iştirakimiz olan TR Motor şirketimiz yerli motoru geliştirmiş olacak.
Kaynak: haber.aero
unquote.

Since this design bureau doesn’t have capability to manufacture the completed design, it will be given to a third party manufacturing plant like TEI to produce the engine. Looking at the timeline of a simpler engine like TS1400; By the time the tests are completed and the serial production stage is reached we will at best see post 2033.

temel kotil is delusional

 

[Radonsider]

@Zafer
Yes the chief of the TAI says in fact that “by 2028 TR Motor will have completed the design development of the indigenous engine for TFX” .

Quote:
Öte yandan 2028’e kadar da iştirakimiz olan TR Motor şirketimiz yerli motoru geliştirmiş olacak.
Kaynak: haber.aero
unquote.

Since this design bureau doesn’t have capability to manufacture the completed design, it will be given to a third party manufacturing plant like TEI to produce the engine. Looking at the timeline of a simpler engine like TS1400; By the time the tests are completed and the serial production stage is reached we will at best see post 2033.

Well, we probably can secure some amounts of F110s for the first batch, let's hope that engine development can be finished until 2033 and be integrated to Block 2, 2033 is a good time actually