TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Afif]

Only with a small percent 1 to 1.2.

1.2 withnew block 70. block 40/50 has 4m
and i think rafales more accurate rcs is 0.5.

 

[Radonsider]

why not ?

1-Rafale at min can have 0.4 clean (SuperHornet has 0.1 to 1 Sqm when clean and keep in mind SH has more stealth measures)

2-RCS of F-16 is around 2sqm clean and there is no way of 2 big tanks not adding around 1.2-1.6 sqm

 

[Afif]

I don't think a bigger AESA can be fit in that nose? RBE2 has 838 GaAs T/R modules. The best that can be done is probably to switch to a similarly sized GaN AESA. BTW neither RBE2 nor APG-83 SABR have necessary capabilities to fully take advantage of Meteor missile.

GaN modules should give the capability to take the full advantage of meteor.

 

[Radonsider]

GaN modules should give the capability to take full advantage.

Surprise surprise MURAD is also GaN

 

[Radonsider]

1.2 withnew block 70. block 40/50 has 4m
and i think rafales more accurate rcs is 0.5.

Block30/40/50 with HaveGlass applied have lower RCS, tho it depends on the model applied

 

[Afif]

Surprise surprise MURAD is also GaN

i think somebody in this thread said GaN modules require 2x more power for cooling! do you know where is that post ?

 

[zio]

Gan T/R modules is smaller than GaAS ,even on the same nose the improvement will be huge,but small surface with more power make a huge challenge for heating problems versus large surface.

 

[Radonsider]

i think somebody in this thread said GaN modules require 2x more power for cooling! do you know where is that post ?

I think 2-3 pages before, and this is a disadvantage for Rafale, smaller nose, smaller space left for cooling

 

[zio]

I think 2-3 pages before, and this is a disadvantage for Rafale, smaller nose, smaller space left for cooling

GaN modules can resist to heat more than GaAs but eventually overheating makes them dye,so it would not to be cost effective

 

[Afif]

I think 2-3 pages before, and this is a disadvantage for Rafale, smaller nose, smaller space left for cooling

found it, it is in @rodeo post,

quote.
It's true that power density of GaN modules are like 5-10 times that of GaAs but they require equally more cooling. That's why ASELSAN had to develop a liquid cooled system. With AESA radars you need about two times more power for the cooling system than the T/R module consumes. If say a module needs 20 watts of power for operation, you need to supply the cooling system with 40 watts. However your GaN radar has %50 more range than a similar sized GaAs radar. The trade-off is worth it.
unquote.

even though i coudnt verify it independently but if it is the case, than do you see the problem with MURAD here?

as you mentioned previously, f16 produce up to 60kw. (Unverified, however pw f100 which used in block 52/72 produce 76kw according to wiki )
so doesnt it seems then, MURAD wouldnt be able to operate at more than 60/70 percent of its actual capability! likely around 17kw/18kw.
@Yasar what is your opinion on the likely limitation of f110 engine's electricity generation does limiting MURADs ability?

 

[Radonsider]

found it, it is in @rodeo post,

quote.
It's true that power density of GaN modules are like 5-10 times that of GaAs but they require equally more cooling. That's why ASELSAN had to develop a liquid cooled system. With AESA radars you need about two times more power for the cooling system than the T/R module consumes. If say a module needs 20 watts of power for operation, you need to supply the cooling system with 40 watts. However your GaN radar has %50 more range than a similar sized GaAs radar. The trade-off is worth it.
unquote.

even though i coudnt verify it independently but if it is the case, than do you see the problem with MURAD here?

as you mentioned previously, f16 produce up to 60kw.
so doesnt it seems then, MURAD wouldnt be able to operate more than 60 percent of its actual capability! likely around 15kw/17kw.
@Yasar what is your opinion on that ?

I am not sure about that, Greek article about AN/APG-80 and APG-83 didn't mention they were electrical power but thermal generation

 

[Rodeo]

found it, it is in @rodeo post,

quote.
It's true that power density of GaN modules are like 5-10 times that of GaAs but they require equally more cooling. That's why ASELSAN had to develop a liquid cooled system. With AESA radars you need about two times more power for the cooling system than the T/R module consumes. If say a module needs 20 watts of power for operation, you need to supply the cooling system with 40 watts. However your GaN radar has %50 more range than a similar sized GaAs radar. The trade-off is worth it.
unquote.

even though i coudnt verify it independently but if it is the case, than do you see the problem with MURAD here?

as you mentioned previously, f16 produce up to 60kw.
so doesnt it seems then, MURAD wouldnt be able to operate at more than 60 percent of its actual capability! likely around 15kw/17kw.
@Yasar what is your opinion on that ?

I should add my reference too.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574885811291422720

Dhimas Afihandarin is very knowledgeable about radars and I learned much from him. He's also followed by Ibrahim Sunnetci and Arda Mevlutoglu, to his credit.

 

[Radonsider]

Well, block 52/72 uses pw f100 which generate 76kw.

As I mentioned, the cooling power we need is not electrical but thermal, think of it like thermal generation in nuclear plants

 

[Trakya_forever]

I think Aselsan engineers should have thought these matters for years. Dont worry about that.

 

[TheInsider]

Gan T/R modules is smaller than GaAS ,even on the same nose the improvement will be huge,but small surface with more power make a huge challenge for heating problems versus large surface.

True. Air cooling maxes at 2.3 kW per square meter. Liquid cooling is different though.

Special cooling system designed by Aselsan for GaN MMICs. It is behind the paywall you can read the abstract.

Numerical Study of Multi Hot Spot GaN Cooling in a Cold Plate Considering Different Flow Networks

As electronic technology develops continuously, space and power allocated for cooling demands increase with time. Therefore, it becomes necessary to develop effective approaches to decrease the cooling power spent and allocated space to obtain low SWAP (Size Weight and Power) values. In this...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The cooling system of APG83 radar in F16V configuration has been developed to require minimal modification and shows lots of similarities with previous system. For a cost-effective modernization solution, keeping the modification costs to a minimum was important and Lockheed Martin developed a suitable system solution but the simple integration solution brought with a plenty of problems in terms of radar performance. The minus of the cooling system which did not offer a revolutionary solution to heating of GaAs high performance modules, brought with software limitations. In order to protect the modules against overheating, the software limits voltage values going to the modules through circuits and this prevents many functions from being used at full capacity. This issue was also told in some reports. Murad GaN AESA with state of art liquid cooling system with high peak power is a different story to talk.

 

[Tornadoss]

True. Air cooling maxes at 2.3 kW per square meter. Liquid cooling is different though.

Special cooling system designed by Aselsan for GaN MMICs. It is behind the paywall you can read the abstract.

Numerical Study of Multi Hot Spot GaN Cooling in a Cold Plate Considering Different Flow Networks

As electronic technology develops continuously, space and power allocated for cooling demands increase with time. Therefore, it becomes necessary to develop effective approaches to decrease the cooling power spent and allocated space to obtain low SWAP (Size Weight and Power) values. In this...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

If anyone ınterested you can use Scihub to access research papers.

 

[Yasar_TR]

A very ambitious statement about two very serious products came from the Turkish officials. Both systems are game changers in air superiority.

First, MURAD AESA radar powered by GaN-based ABmicronano transistors will be superior than APG-83.
The second explanation is that the Gokhan missile will have superior capabilities than its counterparts.

It is getting a bit repetitive and boring to hear “ ours has superior capabilities compared to it’s counterparts” statements for every new piece of equipment we make.
Let’s be more humble and let the equipment speak for itself, like the TB2 has. Also like now, both Anka and Aksungur finding new customers overseas, thus proving their worth.

We all know that Murad Aesa radar, with almost same number of T/R modules as the Apg83 radar, should definitely be superior to the Apg83, for the simple fact that it has higher performance GaN modules. That is logical.

But we don’t really know what superiority the Gökhan missile will have over the Meteor. If it is the very fact that the gel based fuel system will provide a more controlled throattability, and thus longer cruise ranges, then yes; May be it is going to be superior to Meteor.
But due to the need for a separate fuel tank for the Gel based liquid fuel, there will be a weight and space deficit to be content with. This could increase size and overall weight of the missile.
Seeker head technology to be used in Gokhan could be more advanced than Meteor’s. Currently Meteor uses a very advanced active radar seeker head with two way datalink. But this technology dates back to the mid 90’s. So ours should contain newer and more sophisticated seeker tech. May be even detect targets off-boresight, making it more difficult to defend against.
So in order to break the monotonous “ours is better than” statements; If we could just explain why it is so as well, it would make it more credible and understandable.

Just a thought!

 

[F-6 enthusiast]

I don't think a bigger AESA can be fit in that nose? RBE2 has 838 GaAs T/R modules. The best that can be done is probably to switch to a similarly sized GaN AESA. BTW neither RBE2 nor APG-83 SABR have necessary capabilities to fully take advantage of Meteor missile.

by tilting the radar at an angle, theoretically they could increase the no. of TR modules

the question of whether the Rafale's engines would be able to generate power for a more power consuming radar is there.

 

[Radonsider]

by tilting the radar at an angle, theoretically they could increase the no. of TR modules
View attachment 50431
the question of whether the Rafale's engines would be able to generate power for a more power consuming radar is there.

Tilting is not done for more TR modules, it is done for stealth