fire starter
Well-known member
- Messages
- 314
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Except weak spot it is not having any other issues.
TR Propulsion Systems
- Thread starter Combat-Master
- Start date
- Messages
- 5,360
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
TEI/Trmotor has all experience/technologu to produce an turbofan engine in F110 scale and no one knows about background efforts/work at present. Although TrMotor is newly established, More than 200 qualified engineers are working on design of turbofan engine. TEI has thousands of qualified engineers working with TrMotor. Turkish defense industry keeps all its promises in field of aviation. Gokbey made its first flight on the day and hour it was told. TS1400 turboshaft was first fired on the given dates. TFX will be roll-out on the said date. Hürjet and Atak-2 will make first flight even before the given date. No one have any idea about TF6000/10000AB turbofan program but when announced, it was already passed in assembly phase and the core engine will be fired within months. Tf10000 is the warm-up tour for TEI to achieve the main goal but This engine will be the main power source of 7/8 ton scale TISU fighter jet drone that will be revealed soon. Do you think such an ambitious industry that develops such strategic systems is making fun of the targets it has given for some people?
If TUSAŞ says there will be Tf35000 on the TFX prototype in 2028 and Mr. Akşit say that they will do experiments flights of turbofan on TFX and integrate a single domestic engine to twin engine TFX first, this will be the case that all should trust. There may be unfortunate situations or perhaps delays of course but no one should doubt that this goal will be achieved.
If TUSAŞ says there will be Tf35000 on the TFX prototype in 2028 and Mr. Akşit say that they will do experiments flights of turbofan on TFX and integrate a single domestic engine to twin engine TFX first, this will be the case that all should trust. There may be unfortunate situations or perhaps delays of course but no one should doubt that this goal will be achieved.
It is not directly related to Türkiye's propulsion systems but somehow having a partner in this level is really cool.
- Messages
- 9,761
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
I will reply on this later in the propulsion thread with maybe a couple specific examples of underlying technology that folks may not know all that much about.
There are key divergences in RnD as it relates to MTBO and other reliability matters just within the western ecosystem (GE vs RR vs PW) like why GE is the gold standard currently in much of it in the commercial mass production realm. So this extrapolates even further when you look at Russian engines where RnD investment is much lower integral in certain key areas.
For marine, the same matter applies and scales there too:
Propulsion Systems
2019: The kt3200 is in its final stages. 2020: on the last straight. 2021: at the end of the straight. 2022: approached the final line. 2023: we will integrate it into the som missile. 2024: missile test firings. 2025: bla bla . . . ∞ kale failed to do so. I have no more confidence. new engine...
defencehub.live
Propulsion Systems
TEI is providing parts to the main engine manufacturers for 50 different types of military and commercial engine programs. So yes there is nothing preventing us from cooperating with Ukraine. All I am telling is, the negotiations with GE marine has changed the structure of potanial cooperation...
defencehub.live
This is where there is big leg up for Turkiye (given intersection with Western ecosystem at the scale and duration it has occured) even when they design engine from ground up to have as much IP as possible as @Yasar explains.
You should post your source on this in the propulsion thread and we can take things from there.
I personally am skeptical towards that (especially given what I saw in China myself on the matter) till we see actual credible sustained 3rd party use of Chinese engines like we have seen with Russian and Western to gauge their numbers outside of their own claims/projections so to speak.
If the Chinese for example have in fact progressed to that level, given their industrial capacity (and far larger economic return in commercial realm compared to military), we would have seen some competitive commercial engines by now instead of the manner and way CJ-1000 for example keeps getting delayed. You are welcome to see for yourself 10 years later what viability it actually has in the world market and what global MRO infrastructure vets and validates these engines in the end relative to others in actual lifecycle costs. Or what is the actual prevalence and competitiveness of Chinese powerplants in military aircraft at that point in time too among countries where say all are on offer.
Chinese results in marine gas turbine have also been quite lacking in vigour competitively (when they should be pulling far ahead of Russia/Ukraine here by now surely if there is such significant never-before-seen impulse of progress in the aviation apex?).
I think the right approach for such a critical project must include alternative plans. Instead of choosing a single provider for such an interesting project, Project can be started with both TEI and Kale at the same time. Türkiye's political cooperation with England is much more mature than any other big player in world even US. I can see that having simultaneously two projects can be expensive but time is more expensive and in case a trouble it is will cause a big trouble especially in the current situation. The know-how in this field is priceless and after having a working beast like that anything can be done easily. I mean having an engine fulfilling requirements for TF-X project definitely much more difficult than another one. I would even accept a situation a ban export with Kale engine and exportable TEI engine. We can create two versions at worst case and one of them can be exportable and other will be for domestic purposes. I guess there is an ongoing hard discussion with RR and I definitely believe that this will end up with a great success for Türkiye.
It is hard to believe but after almost 100 years of big wars, UK has an army with only 72K people. As other European countries they totally lost war times. I guess they need an allied and Türkiye is very suitable for this purpose.
It is hard to believe but after almost 100 years of big wars, UK has an army with only 72K people. As other European countries they totally lost war times. I guess they need an allied and Türkiye is very suitable for this purpose.
Huelague
Experienced member
- Messages
- 3,930
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Thank you for your advice. I will tell it Mr. Aksit.
- Messages
- 3,247
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
One should not compare Chinese engines with western engines. WS10, a few years ago couldn’t last more than 500 hours. With recent improvements they managed to improve the lifespan to, first, 800 hours; Then to 1500hours. But they are starting the race with a deficit as their engine tech is based on Russian system.
www.defencexp.com
The reason both Chinese and Russian engines smoke has a lot to do with the short combustion chambers they use.
F110 engine on the other hand has been on f16s for over 20 years. Averaging 250 hours per year means that f110 engines last more than 5000hours.
www.globalsecurity.org
If TEI were claiming to be building a variable cycle turbofan engine, I would be sceptical too. But having produced over 300 F110 engines in house and produced most parts of f110 engines, recently using Blisk technology and additive manufacturing techniques, it is logical to expect TEI to be capable of producing a F110 derivative engine for MMU.
That bottom right picture are for the parts that TEI produce of LEAP engine in house today. They manufacture 43 very critical parts of the LEAP engine that flies most of the commercial planes today.
Chinese Aircraft Engines Are Actually "Chinese".....
American Engines are niche technology, Russain AL-41 Engine is advancing but still behind with western ones, where Chinese Engines Stand?
www.defencexp.com
The reason both Chinese and Russian engines smoke has a lot to do with the short combustion chambers they use.
F110 engine on the other hand has been on f16s for over 20 years. Averaging 250 hours per year means that f110 engines last more than 5000hours.
F110
If TEI were claiming to be building a variable cycle turbofan engine, I would be sceptical too. But having produced over 300 F110 engines in house and produced most parts of f110 engines, recently using Blisk technology and additive manufacturing techniques, it is logical to expect TEI to be capable of producing a F110 derivative engine for MMU.
That bottom right picture are for the parts that TEI produce of LEAP engine in house today. They manufacture 43 very critical parts of the LEAP engine that flies most of the commercial planes today.
rif.ahm
Active member
- Messages
- 34
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
They are already manufacturing 50 mw f class heavy duty gas turbine. SoI don't they are too far behind in that gas turbine technology.I will reply on this later in the propulsion thread with maybe a couple specific examples of underlying technology that folks may not know all that much about.
There are key divergences in RnD as it relates to MTBO and other reliability matters just within the western ecosystem (GE vs RR vs PW) like why GE is the gold standard currently in much of it in the commercial mass production realm. So this extrapolates even further when you look at Russian engines where RnD investment is much lower integral in certain key areas.
For marine, the same matter applies and scales there too:
Propulsion Systems
2019: The kt3200 is in its final stages. 2020: on the last straight. 2021: at the end of the straight. 2022: approached the final line. 2023: we will integrate it into the som missile. 2024: missile test firings. 2025: bla bla . . . ∞ kale failed to do so. I have no more confidence. new engine...Propulsion Systems
TEI is providing parts to the main engine manufacturers for 50 different types of military and commercial engine programs. So yes there is nothing preventing us from cooperating with Ukraine. All I am telling is, the negotiations with GE marine has changed the structure of potanial cooperation...
This is where there is big leg up for Turkiye (given intersection with Western ecosystem at the scale and duration it has occured) even when they design engine from ground up to have as much IP as possible as @Yasar explains.
You should post your source on this in the propulsion thread and we can take things from there.
I personally am skeptical towards that (especially given what I saw in China myself on the matter) till we see actual credible sustained 3rd party use of Chinese engines like we have seen with Russian and Western to gauge their numbers outside of their own claims/projections so to speak.
If the Chinese for example have in fact progressed to that level, given their industrial capacity (and far larger economic return in commercial realm compared to military), we would have seen some competitive commercial engines by now instead of the manner and way CJ-1000 for example keeps getting delayed. You are welcome to see for yourself 10 years later what viability it actually has in the world market and what global MRO infrastructure vets and validates these engines in the end relative to others in actual lifecycle costs. Or what is the actual prevalence and competitiveness of Chinese powerplants in military aircraft at that point in time too among countries where say all are on offer.
Chinese results in marine gas turbine have also been quite lacking in vigour competitively (when they should be pulling far ahead of Russia/Ukraine here by now surely if there is such significant never-before-seen impulse of progress in the aviation apex?).
China's First F-Class 50 MW Heavy-Duty Gas Turbine Operates at Full Capacity - World-Energy
Dongfang electric self-developed domestic first class F 50 mw heavy duty gas turbine at capacity, various indicators of normal operation, expert witness.
www.world-energy.org
- Messages
- 9,761
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
This is an industrial gas turbine. There is even less weight/size issue than a marine one (which is then quite different to aviation where this becomes even more of a premium).
I'm just waiting for 2030s decade when we actually have more "in operation" data on turboprops/shafts and turbofans from China (commercial or military)....crucially outside of China...so there is actual credible vetting.
China military realm operates on lot of "trust me bro" assertion right now, which simply does not stack up to way say Russians have put their stuff out there to compete with western propulsion for the last 30+ years....so we have hard data comparison when weight/size are at premium in marine and then especially ground mobility and air (to Russian detriment in comparison, but hey its out there at least).
Gary
Experienced member
- Messages
- 8,361
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
even than, I'm curious at how long is the operating hours. creating the engine powerful enough is not a problem. In fact GE once made a whopping 600MW gas turbine. Its how long could it run flawlessly before it cease to perform.
But kudos to the Chinese, they've gone a long way and definitely keep advancing.
rif.ahm
Active member
- Messages
- 34
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Another breakthrough in engine material technology
Chinese team develops first ceramic material that can bend like metal
The technology could boost the performance of engines and be used to make better artificial joints and wind turbine components, according to scientist.
www.scmp.com
- Messages
- 9,761
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Another breakthrough in engine material technology
Chinese team develops first ceramic material that can bend like metal
The technology could boost the performance of engines and be used to make better artificial joints and wind turbine components, according to scientist.
"Could", "would", "should" w.r.t "breakthrough" stuff
Asked and answered your honour:
So you seem to not be understanding what I am getting at here when it comes to actual matured realisation and application of breakthroughs in the short, mid and long term final relevancy.
Take any of the 3 aviation gas turbine majors in the West (4 if you count snecma and 5 if you count MTU).
Within each one of these well matured organisations in this domain (before you approach any other), maybe you or others can hazard a guess as to the % of breakthroughs in some year X (in some tributary of feeder system of research in academia/industry) actually maturing and being applied in year X+10.
i.e the sustained breakthrough actual conversion and application rate to a defined result in this domain. i.e What are the significant filter and sustainment work that is needed but also imposes some penalty on the final rate of what actually gets matured application within a timeframe.
Do you figure its something like 50%? 10%? 5%? 1% for say a 10 year timespan?
How does that % increase for say year X+20?
If you will be patient till the weekend when I have a bit more time I can explain a bit more on just one key element in aviation gas turbines that is bread and butter of its long term cost performance and why Russia (and thus China) lag there given the notable issues just between the western companies and research networks on it.
There is often too much focus in clickbait articles on things like "single crystal" and "CMC" and whatever other material science related to the hot section. I'm not dismissing their value and importance but there is actually lot more "plain jane" RnD and application (a lot of it in other parts of material science and a lot also outside of material science completely) that have taken, take and will take significant costs and time.
rif.ahm
Active member
- Messages
- 34
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
E
In your comment previous to that one, you didn't even know TEI was already using SCBs and TCBs - developed a decade ago - in its engines.
I suggest that next time you join a forum, try not beclowning yourself in your very first post.
- Messages
- 9,761
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
For time being (given I may not be free this weekend, but maybe a future one instead)... I will mention in any massively time + resource consuming endeavour (though time is just a resource as well, and quite likely the most important and nuanced one) in the human realm:
When you have a series of pyramids built (in your rearview), you have future options that were, are and will be dictated in large degree by your collective decision making w.r.t ambition pursuit. But the scope of this is also constrained by underlying laws/truths governing this universe/reality (gravity notably in this case).
The greatest mentor I ever studied under (probably in the top 1% if not 0.1% intellectual ability of the world) was a high school maths teacher that only now when looking back (and having since found out who he worked for and what he did in his earlier life in the maths and computer science realm). I realise (looking back) just how way over-qualified he was for that job and that in large measure he was doing it to "give back" to the community as a kind of hobby in his older age to work with younger eager minds.
But he told me no less than 3 times that in Maths you can pick two routes, and each have great equal merit in the long run. He would illustrate this with specific examples I still remember.
You can:
A) find the new/novel bigger picture stuff (macro, pushing the apex vertically, rising ever higher so to speak)
OR
B) you can look at what already exists in body of work and inspect it deeper and deeper (micro), shore it up and/or broaden it laterally
B actually helps A (the apex realm) later too, much like driving the apex (A) also necessitates broadening of the base (B) over time to support it sustainably. Law of equilibrium essentially.
A, the apex-drive (To boldly go where no one has gone before as Picard put it) often grabs more attention or captures the imagination more easily than B. That is somewhat an intrinsic human spirit/psyche thing I suppose, but the seasoned veterans of any craft/endeavour know the equal importance of both in the end.
In the pyramid visualisation decision, it very much can be though of as the balance between pushing its height vs broadening/strengthening its base which I quickly drew up to attach here.
This is very much the difference in the end (in jet engine craft) between hot section material research vs say bearings and splines (which is what I plan to explore a bit more later, time pending).
In fact (on this topic of gas turbine propulsion) I would bet strongly on the latter (i.e "B" stuff) being what is causing some relevant part of the "certification delays" in PRC's turbofan LEAP-equivalent project. There is a great body of work that cannot be so quickly bounded over (in a drive to catch up etc) by say relative nominal attention and resource spent there.
@TR_123456 @Mis_TR_Like @Yasar @Cabatli_TR @Gessler @Anmdt @Test7 @Saithan @Gary et. al
Last edited:
NitricAcid
Active member
- Messages
- 97
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Prototype Manufacturing of Turkey's Most Powerful Engine TEI-TF6000 Started
TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. We present a special interview with Mahmut F. AKŞİT about the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine, which is the largest national turbofan engine developed in our country with a dry thrust capacity of 6,000 lbf, at the Istanbul Air Show 2022 Fair on October 7th.
December 02, 2022
DEFENCE TURKEY: First of all, could you briefly introduce the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine, which was designed in less than two years and came to the prototype production stage and exhibited for the first time at TEKNOFEST Black Sea? What can you say about the compressor and fan design and the number of turbine stages?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Our TEI-TF6000 engine is actually an engine that we, as TEI engineering team, built to train our team on the way to the National Combat Aircraft (MMU/TF-X) and develop it as a talent. We have brought it up to this point with our own means. It is actually the most powerful engine ever designed and developed in Turkey. It gives 6,000 pounds, or 6,000 pounds of thrust. The engine's capacity can actually increase to 10,000 pounds if an afterburner is added to the exhaust section in this state. So it's a pretty powerful engine. Since we have built our engine in terms of technology development, we want to observe the technologies to be used in the engine of the National Combat Aircraft here. We will also use the design analysis software developed by our engineering team to confirm and calibrate the assumptions used in the design.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Kind of like a springboard for the MMU engine...
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, in order to confirm and validate the technologies to be used in the big engine there, and then apply it to the big engine...
DEFENCE TURKEY: Isn't TEI one of the three companies that have already bid for the MMU Engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As we mentioned before, we, as TEI, are involved in the national development of the engine of the National Combat Aircraft. The engine is essentially a military turbofan engine configuration. There are two fan stages in front, there are compressor stages behind it…
DEFENCE TURKEY: Is there a different fan placement in commercial engines?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Commercial engines have a large single stage fan at the front. A massive fan, the only stage fan we saw getting on the plane. You can even see the light behind it. In commercial turbofans, the actual engine is smaller in the middle. Because the fan is so large, most of the air it produces passes around the engine directly to the rear. In military turbofans, a small part of the air, if not that much, still flows from the outside of the engine, while a significant part of it flows through it to produce the actual power. These are absorbed by the compressor and taken into the combustion chamber, compressed, burned and thrown out from behind. Some of this power is used to spin the fan. Military turbofan engines have a smaller fan diameter. There are different reasons for this. First; You have to go up to high speeds. It is not possible to go higher than the speed of sound with such a big fan. On the contrary, this time it starts to create a disadvantage. As the need for speed increases, the large cross-section creates greater resistance. It is more convenient to use small type fans in military turbofans. In fact, this is what military turbofans are made for. One advantage is of course the afterburner configuration. Throwing some of the air back into the engine as a direct thrust from the outside reduces fuel consumption and increases range. In this way, you fly more economically in military planes on normal flights, except for emergencies. When you press some of the air directly to the back with the fan and mix it with the exhaust, you get a mixture with a relatively higher oxygen ratio at the rear. In emergency and high power situations, in this afterburner, you throw plenty of fuel into the oxygenated air, into the hot exhaust gas, and you get an additional effect with a separate combustion. That's how you get to 10,000 pounds. This is indispensable for military engines when necessary.
DEFENCE TURKEY: You said there are compressor stages behind the fans…
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, there is a compressor, but the compressor does not suck all the air blown by the fan, it sucks about half of it in such a configuration.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Are single crystal turbine blades used in TEI-TF6000?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. After burning the air we sucked from the compressor in the combustion chamber, we hit the hot exhaust gas to the turbine blades. And since it directly sees the flame, the hot exhaust gas, those blades must be single crystal turbine blades resistant to very high temperatures so that they can operate at higher temperatures.
DEFENCE TURKEY: So, is the single crystal turbine blade and the IBR used in the F135 TF Engine the same thing?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: No, IBR is on the compressor side. On the compressor side, we call the new generation blades blisk (compressor disc and blades produced as a single piece), meaning “bladed disc”. Some other engine manufacturers call it more IBR. Integrally Bladed Rotors (IBR). It actually means the same thing. In other words, the wings are not manufactured separately and stacked on a disc. Disc and wing are integrated, designed and manufactured together.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Does the TEI-TF6000 Engine also have blisk technology?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. Our engine has that new generation blisk or IBR technology. This directly affects the efficiency of the engine.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Dear Akşit, you just mentioned that very high temperatures are reached in the combustion chamber. High temperature means the need for cooling on the one hand and the need for special materials on the other. Are the materials (such as titanium, nickel, steel, aluminum and composite) needed in the TEI-TF6000 Engine Project, especially in the hot region, domestically produced or outsourced? Has the desired level been reached within the scope of aviation engine materials development projects such as CEVHER and KÜÇE, which were previously initiated by SSB and TEI?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:As TEI, we saw this need even before our first helicopter engine project started, so we started working with our own means, just like the TEI-TF6000 engine. Of course, it is not possible to expect everything from our state. The state gives many projects. As you already know, the number of projects supported by the SSB has increased significantly. Opportunities are also limited, it is not possible for them to support everything at all times. What are we doing? We start the technologies that we should definitely use beforehand. When it reaches a certain point, we ask for additional support from the SSB and so on. For example, we started the Single Crystal Turbine Blade Casting Process Technology studies before our TEI-TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Development Project. Afterwards, we turned it into an SSB R&D Project, and thanks to their support, we successfully poured it out for the first time in Turkey. Likewise, we started the CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2 projects, which focus on material technologies. Now, for example, the second phase of ORE-2 begins. Here, too, we carry out R&D projects to produce in Turkey the strategic materials that we are gradually dependent on abroad.
DEFENCE TURKEY: In which parts are Titanium, Aluminum, Steel and Composite materials used in the engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Generally, the compressor side on the main flow path at the front is made of Titanium material. Light and relatively cold. The turbine stages after the combustion chamber become Nickel superalloys and are directly exposed to the flame. Unfortunately, titanium cannot work at those high temperatures. In other words, the front side of the engine is usually Titanium, and the rear side is usually Nickel super alloy.
DEFENCE TURKEY: So, are these two materials you mentioned being localized under the CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2 Projects, which aim to develop materials used in aviation (including the engine) and production processes?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. Of course, they have different grades, there are a thousand and one types. The material developed for wing casting is Nickel super alloy, but it was developed for single crystal. There are also the materials we use for stator nozzles and vanes, for example. They are motionless, do not turn. They are also Nickel super alloy, but they are also made of other materials. As I said, they have different grades. When we say CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2, we developed the most urgent and indispensable ones in the first stage. Now we have moved to the second stage with ORE-2. In the long term, we are following a strategy that will hopefully produce all the critical materials that our engine needs in our country. Let me give you the good news about alloys. As of now, we have developed the single crystal blade material in Turkey.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Isn't it with TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, TÜBİTAK is also involved and we have our subsidiaries (GÜR METAL and Varzene). We have a large materials engineering team in our own R&D Directorate. At the managerial level, we have a Material Process Department of its own. Under their coordination, we developed both single crystal blade material and alloys such as Nickel super alloy “Inconel 718, 718 Plus, 738” in Turkey, together with the TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute team and our subsidiaries. But there are more special materials with higher quality, higher strength, such as those used in discs, we are currently working on them.
DEFENCE TURKEY: At what stage are you in the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine Project? Has prototype production started?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:Engine design is a cyclical, iterative process. For example, we started the core of our helicopter engine, the TEI-TS1400 Engine, which we manufactured and operated for the first time in Turkey, in November 2017. There are also videos online. That engine, for example, was in the second design cycle. In other words, the engine was designed from the ground up once, then optimized and designed once again. We fabricated and ran that second design. That version, for example, was tested for hundreds of hours, while design iterations continued. Better, better, better. At the moment, we will produce and deliver our first two engines, which we will hopefully approve for manned flight, before the end of this year. Although, TAI says, “Do some tests at TEI before you send it.” he asked us. Therefore, we will do those tests and send the engines like that.
The TEI-TS1400 Engines, which we will give ready for the first manned flight, are in the 8th design cycle, for example. Now coming to the TEI-TF6000 Engine, this engine is still in its early design cycles. In the TEI-TS1400 helicopter engine, for example, we predicted that the second design cycle could now be operated. Of course, with the experience we gained from the helicopter engine, we progressed faster in the design cycles in TEI-TF6000 and took the engine into the prototype manufacturing process within 2.5 years. So the first TF6000 prototype is currently in production.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Can you give a date for the first run?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Especially the first prototype production takes a lot of time in such big engines. Because you write CNC production codes for individual models of all parts. Individual codes are written and sample pieces are tested. Molds are made where necessary. After you see that the software processes everything at the desired size, you can now process real materials. It takes quite a while to do this into hundreds of parts. Engineering it, that is, manufacturing engineering, is also very important here. It normally takes at least two or three years. We are currently trying to fit this into one year.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Will we be able to see a prototype of TEI-TF6000 at IDEF '23 Fair?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: We are pressing the team right now, but of course there are also problems with the supply of materials. Supply chains are broken all over the world, especially due to COVID. So think of an engine, there are hundreds and thousands of parts and components on it, big and small.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Can you share a number of parts in the TEI-TF6000 Engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: The number of main parts that make up the main engine is between 200-300. However, there are many additional things on it, such as more than 1,500 screws, bolts, cables, clips, large and small. But there are between 200 and 300 main parts that make up the body of the actual engine.
DEFENCE TURKEY: At the beginning of our conversation, Mr. Mahmut, you pointed out that the TEI-TF6000 is an engine designed for TEI to train the team and develop it as a talent on the way to the National Combat Aircraft (MMU/TF-X). But the end result will be an engine and it will have a development cost. On which platforms is TEI-TF6000 targeted to be used? For example, the KIZILELMA MIUS platform that comes to mind first?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:Let's put it this way, as we have said before for our TEI-TJ300 Turbojet Engine, TEI-TF6000 is also a project to gain experience and know-how. Think about it, we made TEI-TJ300 after TEI-TJ90 Engine. We did it for learning purposes. The TEI-TJ90 was a small engine with a radial compressor. We can almost say that it was our first jet engine. A small engine that powers the ŞİMŞEK High Speed Target Aircraft. TEI-TJ300 is specially designed with axial compressor. The reason is that all these military turbofan engines are axial compressors. TEI-TF6000 also has an axial compressor. We are making a springboard from there by adapting the know-how we developed there to a slightly larger scale. But we pay special attention when choosing the sizes of these intermediate products in order to use them somewhere. Our state has to earn something in return for this effort, right? For example, the TEI-TJ300 has an anti-ship missile engine. MIUS can use the TEI-TF6000 Engine, it is already in its power class, we have chosen it that way. Also, four of these engines can power one of our gunboats. It can also be used as a gas turbine that generates electricity… It produces a power that alone can meet the electricity of approximately 3,000-4,000 homes.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Could you inform us about the latest situation in the TEI-TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Program? Finally, with the use of Alp Aviation gearbox, I guess the rate of locality reached 100%? When is it planned to start on-platform flight tests?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As I have already said in TEI-TS1400, our engines, which we have made into the latest version, are currently in the assembly phase. We will finish assembling them before the end of the year. We already had a year-end goal. We will do some tests that need to be done within the scope of our negotiations with TAI before we deliver them. If nothing goes wrong, we will deliver the engines to them as the end of February next year, with the indispensable tests done. We hope that if they act quickly in the integration of the helicopter, we can get off the ground with our national engine in the first half of next year.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Now, aren't the engines in the 8th design cycle that you're going to give also compatible with the T625's engine bay? After the delivery, the work of adapting the engine mounts on the T625 GÖKBEY Helicopter will not be on the agenda?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Of course. The first prototype we gave at the ceremony attended by our President is almost exactly the same as the last mature version for 'form fit' works, it enters the same place, the connections are the same, everything is the same. That's why we gave it away. We gave it to them as soon as possible so that they could do the formality and integration work early. So, when we give the mature engine that it can fly, they can plug it in and fly it, so to shorten that time. Otherwise, the integration of an engine into an aircraft is a process that takes several years.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Well, this is an engine that never flew after all. When you give it, will it fly directly or will one of the engines be TEI-TS1400 and the other one on the helicopter?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As far as I know, both engines on the helicopter will be TEI-TS1400 in the first flight. Of course, TAI will decide this. But first, they tie the helicopter on the ground and force it as if it was at full power. They do all the tests, if there is no problem, they untie the chains, then they do the tests at 10-15 meters above the ground. Therefore, they do not suddenly lift the helicopter and take it to the sky.
DEFENCE TURKEY: A similar process was followed in the first flight of the T625 GÖKBEY helicopter.
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, we say “hover” a little above the ground. We expect the same here. In other words, if we pass the maximum tests on the ground without any problems towards the middle of next year, I hope we will see the helicopter take off from the ground.
Source : https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...f6000-motorunun-prototip-imalati-basladi-5308
Last edited:
- Messages
- 275
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
@Nilgiri would like to read your evaluation in light of the newly published information about TEI and the road ahead to create an TF-X class engine.
Prototype Manufacturing of Turkey's Most Powerful Engine TEI-TF6000 Started
TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. We present a special interview with Mahmut F. AKŞİT about the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine, which is the largest national turbofan engine developed in our country with a dry thrust capacity of 6,000 lbf, at the Istanbul Air Show 2022 Fair on October 7th.
December 02, 2022
DEFENCE TURKEY: First of all, could you briefly introduce the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine, which was designed in less than two years and came to the prototype production stage and exhibited for the first time at TEKNOFEST Black Sea? What can you say about the compressor and fan design and the number of turbine stages?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Our TEI-TF6000 engine is actually an engine that we, as TEI engineering team, built to train our team on the way to the National Combat Aircraft (MMU/TF-X) and develop it as a talent. We have brought it up to this point with our own means. It is actually the most powerful engine ever designed and developed in Turkey. It gives 6,000 pounds, or 6,000 pounds of thrust. The engine's capacity can actually increase to 10,000 pounds if an afterburner is added to the exhaust section in this state. So it's a pretty powerful engine. Since we have built our engine in terms of technology development, we want to observe the technologies to be used in the engine of the National Combat Aircraft here. We will also use the design analysis software developed by our engineering team to confirm and calibrate the assumptions used in the design.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Kind of like a springboard for the MMU engine...
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, in order to confirm and validate the technologies to be used in the big engine there, and then apply it to the big engine...
DEFENCE TURKEY: Isn't TEI one of the three companies that have already bid for the MMU Engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As we mentioned before, we, as TEI, are involved in the national development of the engine of the National Combat Aircraft. The engine is essentially a military turbofan engine configuration. There are two fan stages in front, there are compressor stages behind it…
DEFENCE TURKEY: Is there a different fan placement in commercial engines?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Commercial engines have a large single stage fan at the front. A massive fan, the only stage fan we saw getting on the plane. You can even see the light behind it. In commercial turbofans, the actual engine is smaller in the middle. Because the fan is so large, most of the air it produces passes around the engine directly to the rear. In military turbofans, a small part of the air, if not that much, still flows from the outside of the engine, while a significant part of it flows through it to produce the actual power. These are absorbed by the compressor and taken into the combustion chamber, compressed, burned and thrown out from behind. Some of this power is used to spin the fan. Military turbofan engines have a smaller fan diameter. There are different reasons for this. First; You have to go up to high speeds. It is not possible to go higher than the speed of sound with such a big fan. On the contrary, this time it starts to create a disadvantage. As the need for speed increases, the large cross-section creates greater resistance. It is more convenient to use small type fans in military turbofans. In fact, this is what military turbofans are made for. One advantage is of course the afterburner configuration. Throwing some of the air back into the engine as a direct thrust from the outside reduces fuel consumption and increases range. In this way, you fly more economically in military planes on normal flights, except for emergencies. When you press some of the air directly to the back with the fan and mix it with the exhaust, you get a mixture with a relatively higher oxygen ratio at the rear. In emergency and high power situations, in this afterburner, you throw plenty of fuel into the oxygenated air, into the hot exhaust gas, and you get an additional effect with a separate combustion. That's how you get to 10,000 pounds. This is indispensable for military engines when necessary.
DEFENCE TURKEY: You said there are compressor stages behind the fans…
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, there is a compressor, but the compressor does not suck all the air blown by the fan, it sucks about half of it in such a configuration.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Are single crystal turbine blades used in TEI-TF6000?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. After burning the air we sucked from the compressor in the combustion chamber, we hit the hot exhaust gas to the turbine blades. And since it directly sees the flame, the hot exhaust gas, those blades must be single crystal turbine blades resistant to very high temperatures so that they can operate at higher temperatures.
DEFENCE TURKEY: So, is the single crystal turbine blade and the IBR used in the F135 TF Engine the same thing?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: No, IBR is on the compressor side. On the compressor side, we call the new generation blades blisk (compressor disc and blades produced as a single piece), meaning “bladed disc”. Some other engine manufacturers call it more IBR. Integrally Bladed Rotors (IBR). It actually means the same thing. In other words, the wings are not manufactured separately and stacked on a disc. Disc and wing are integrated, designed and manufactured together.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Does the TEI-TF6000 Engine also have blisk technology?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. Our engine has that new generation blisk or IBR technology. This directly affects the efficiency of the engine.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Dear Akşit, you just mentioned that very high temperatures are reached in the combustion chamber. High temperature means the need for cooling on the one hand and the need for special materials on the other. Are the materials (such as titanium, nickel, steel, aluminum and composite) needed in the TEI-TF6000 Engine Project, especially in the hot region, domestically produced or outsourced? Has the desired level been reached within the scope of aviation engine materials development projects such as CEVHER and KÜÇE, which were previously initiated by SSB and TEI?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:As TEI, we saw this need even before our first helicopter engine project started, so we started working with our own means, just like the TEI-TF6000 engine. Of course, it is not possible to expect everything from our state. The state gives many projects. As you already know, the number of projects supported by the SSB has increased significantly. Opportunities are also limited, it is not possible for them to support everything at all times. What are we doing? We start the technologies that we should definitely use beforehand. When it reaches a certain point, we ask for additional support from the SSB and so on. For example, we started the Single Crystal Turbine Blade Casting Process Technology studies before our TEI-TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Development Project. Afterwards, we turned it into an SSB R&D Project, and thanks to their support, we successfully poured it out for the first time in Turkey. Likewise, we started the CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2 projects, which focus on material technologies. Now, for example, the second phase of ORE-2 begins. Here, too, we carry out R&D projects to produce in Turkey the strategic materials that we are gradually dependent on abroad.
DEFENCE TURKEY: In which parts are Titanium, Aluminum, Steel and Composite materials used in the engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Generally, the compressor side on the main flow path at the front is made of Titanium material. Light and relatively cold. The turbine stages after the combustion chamber become Nickel superalloys and are directly exposed to the flame. Unfortunately, titanium cannot work at those high temperatures. In other words, the front side of the engine is usually Titanium, and the rear side is usually Nickel super alloy.
DEFENCE TURKEY: So, are these two materials you mentioned being localized under the CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2 Projects, which aim to develop materials used in aviation (including the engine) and production processes?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes. Of course, they have different grades, there are a thousand and one types. The material developed for wing casting is Nickel super alloy, but it was developed for single crystal. There are also the materials we use for stator nozzles and vanes, for example. They are motionless, do not turn. They are also Nickel super alloy, but they are also made of other materials. As I said, they have different grades. When we say CEVHER-1 and CEVHER-2, we developed the most urgent and indispensable ones in the first stage. Now we have moved to the second stage with ORE-2. In the long term, we are following a strategy that will hopefully produce all the critical materials that our engine needs in our country. Let me give you the good news about alloys. As of now, we have developed the single crystal blade material in Turkey.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Isn't it with TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, TÜBİTAK is also involved and we have our subsidiaries (GÜR METAL and Varzene). We have a large materials engineering team in our own R&D Directorate. At the managerial level, we have a Material Process Department of its own. Under their coordination, we developed both single crystal blade material and alloys such as Nickel super alloy “Inconel 718, 718 Plus, 738” in Turkey, together with the TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute team and our subsidiaries. But there are more special materials with higher quality, higher strength, such as those used in discs, we are currently working on them.
DEFENCE TURKEY: At what stage are you in the TEI-TF6000 Turbofan Engine Project? Has prototype production started?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:Engine design is a cyclical, iterative process. For example, we started the core of our helicopter engine, the TEI-TS1400 Engine, which we manufactured and operated for the first time in Turkey, in November 2017. There are also videos online. That engine, for example, was in the second design cycle. In other words, the engine was designed from the ground up once, then optimized and designed once again. We fabricated and ran that second design. That version, for example, was tested for hundreds of hours, while design iterations continued. Better, better, better. At the moment, we will produce and deliver our first two engines, which we will hopefully approve for manned flight, before the end of this year. Although, TAI says, “Do some tests at TEI before you send it.” he asked us. Therefore, we will do those tests and send the engines like that.
The TEI-TS1400 Engines, which we will give ready for the first manned flight, are in the 8th design cycle, for example. Now coming to the TEI-TF6000 Engine, this engine is still in its early design cycles. In the TEI-TS1400 helicopter engine, for example, we predicted that the second design cycle could now be operated. Of course, with the experience we gained from the helicopter engine, we progressed faster in the design cycles in TEI-TF6000 and took the engine into the prototype manufacturing process within 2.5 years. So the first TF6000 prototype is currently in production.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Can you give a date for the first run?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Especially the first prototype production takes a lot of time in such big engines. Because you write CNC production codes for individual models of all parts. Individual codes are written and sample pieces are tested. Molds are made where necessary. After you see that the software processes everything at the desired size, you can now process real materials. It takes quite a while to do this into hundreds of parts. Engineering it, that is, manufacturing engineering, is also very important here. It normally takes at least two or three years. We are currently trying to fit this into one year.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Will we be able to see a prototype of TEI-TF6000 at IDEF '23 Fair?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: We are pressing the team right now, but of course there are also problems with the supply of materials. Supply chains are broken all over the world, especially due to COVID. So think of an engine, there are hundreds and thousands of parts and components on it, big and small.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Can you share a number of parts in the TEI-TF6000 Engine?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: The number of main parts that make up the main engine is between 200-300. However, there are many additional things on it, such as more than 1,500 screws, bolts, cables, clips, large and small. But there are between 200 and 300 main parts that make up the body of the actual engine.
DEFENCE TURKEY: At the beginning of our conversation, Mr. Mahmut, you pointed out that the TEI-TF6000 is an engine designed for TEI to train the team and develop it as a talent on the way to the National Combat Aircraft (MMU/TF-X). But the end result will be an engine and it will have a development cost. On which platforms is TEI-TF6000 targeted to be used? For example, the KIZILELMA MIUS platform that comes to mind first?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT:Let's put it this way, as we have said before for our TEI-TJ300 Turbojet Engine, TEI-TF6000 is also a project to gain experience and know-how. Think about it, we made TEI-TJ300 after TEI-TJ90 Engine. We did it for learning purposes. The TEI-TJ90 was a small engine with a radial compressor. We can almost say that it was our first jet engine. A small engine that powers the ŞİMŞEK High Speed Target Aircraft. TEI-TJ300 is specially designed with axial compressor. The reason is that all these military turbofan engines are axial compressors. TEI-TF6000 also has an axial compressor. We are making a springboard from there by adapting the know-how we developed there to a slightly larger scale. But we pay special attention when choosing the sizes of these intermediate products in order to use them somewhere. Our state has to earn something in return for this effort, right? For example, the TEI-TJ300 has an anti-ship missile engine. MIUS can use the TEI-TF6000 Engine, it is already in its power class, we have chosen it that way. Also, four of these engines can power one of our gunboats. It can also be used as a gas turbine that generates electricity… It produces a power that alone can meet the electricity of approximately 3,000-4,000 homes.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Could you inform us about the latest situation in the TEI-TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Program? Finally, with the use of Alp Aviation gearbox, I guess the rate of locality reached 100%? When is it planned to start on-platform flight tests?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As I have already said in TEI-TS1400, our engines, which we have made into the latest version, are currently in the assembly phase. We will finish assembling them before the end of the year. We already had a year-end goal. We will do some tests that need to be done within the scope of our negotiations with TAI before we deliver them. If nothing goes wrong, we will deliver the engines to them as the end of February next year, with the indispensable tests done. We hope that if they act quickly in the integration of the helicopter, we can get off the ground with our national engine in the first half of next year.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Now, aren't the engines in the 8th design cycle that you're going to give also compatible with the T625's engine bay? After the delivery, the work of adapting the engine mounts on the T625 GÖKBEY Helicopter will not be on the agenda?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Of course. The first prototype we gave at the ceremony attended by our President is almost exactly the same as the last mature version for 'form fit' works, it enters the same place, the connections are the same, everything is the same. That's why we gave it away. We gave it to them as soon as possible so that they could do the formality and integration work early. So, when we give the mature engine that it can fly, they can plug it in and fly it, so to shorten that time. Otherwise, the integration of an engine into an aircraft is a process that takes several years.
DEFENCE TURKEY: Well, this is an engine that never flew after all. When you give it, will it fly directly or will one of the engines be TEI-TS1400 and the other one on the helicopter?
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: As far as I know, both engines on the helicopter will be TEI-TS1400 in the first flight. Of course, TAI will decide this. But first, they tie the helicopter on the ground and force it as if it was at full power. They do all the tests, if there is no problem, they untie the chains, then they do the tests at 10-15 meters above the ground. Therefore, they do not suddenly lift the helicopter and take it to the sky.
DEFENCE TURKEY: A similar process was followed in the first flight of the T625 GÖKBEY helicopter.
prof. Dr. Mahmut F. AKŞİT: Yes, we say “hover” a little above the ground. We expect the same here. In other words, if we pass the maximum tests on the ground without any problems towards the middle of next year, I hope we will see the helicopter take off from the ground.
Source : https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...f6000-motorunun-prototip-imalati-basladi-5308
Last edited:
TsumugiShirogane
Active member
- Messages
- 39
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
You know how to read? Or do I need spell it out that making a 1400SHP turboshaft engine for ROTARY aircraft is nowhere near the complexity of developing and testing a 35000lbf turbofan engine and making it fly a FIXED WING asset successfully? Not talking about tests or prototypes, but actually flying the plane? You follow? Even with RR cooperation we'll have it flying around 2030, with no help We don't have a new jet until 2040s. You're like that Iraqi minister saying "everything is fine folks". How about you wake up from that Iraqi/Russian mindset of ignoring the cold reality on the ground.
Brokengineer
Committed member
- Messages
- 239
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
How many company can you count right know that are able to develop 1400shp turboshaft engines with single crystal blades?
Turkey succeeded to Come up with engine waiting cerfitication process and so far everthing is going Fine.
I am not saying, it will be going flawlessly. However, our aerospace manufacturing capabilites is one of the best in the world. Thats why People believe its feasibility even tough it is hardest challenge we ever faced.
Tf6000 engine will be a demonstrator of what we ll be capable of.
- Messages
- 1,330
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
You need to educate yourself better before you barge in with your half-baked opinions. I assume you're not gonna read the thread but if I may suggest, there is a search section that you can use to search the posts of certain users. @Nilgiri (he's a professional) and @Yasar know much about turbine engines. You could create a query to read their posts and inform yourself better. Then, maybe we could learn a thing or two from you.
Here's I created one for you.
Search results for query: engine
defencehub.live
You could explore the thread with less effort. The engine problems are delineated by these users many times before.
