TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Radonsider]

Previously we did somewhat detailed examination of F-35's RCS based on available data. We tried to figure out how SIPER would hold up against a F-35.
(ERIS has a detection range of 470km against targets with 1m RCS)



Here is the main article.

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

TOYGUN is not similar to EOTS.


You see TOYGUN is a FLIR only.
While EOTS combines both FLIR and IRST in one.

However, that is why for A2A applications TFX has independent KARAT IRST.



True. (But it would be interested to see if they can pull off the desired result within current budget)



More or less I agree. However, if your concern is Greece then I have to say, they are unlikely to risk their limited numbers of F-35s against TurAF in short brust of tactical skirmishes.

No, TOYGUN works exactly like the EOTS, they both use the same method. There is no magic in EOTS.

If you go look at Toygun advertisement you will also see that "Air to Air" is present, same for external pods too.

The reason why KARAT is a different sensor is because of diversification, working on ground and air at the same time and using LWIR so better for detecting individual heat sources

 

[Enderun]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655482691452563456

 

[Oublious]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655482691452563456

number one pictures...

 

[GoatsMilk]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

 

[Yasar_TR]

They sent those to Ukraine.

I am afraid they did not.

Greece not to transfer S-300 systems to Ukraine, says PM Mitsotakis

Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis has said that his country will not send Russian-made S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems to Ukraine, the Greek news website eKathimerini reported on Feb. 22.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Radonsider]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

TR3, if it doesn't get delayed again

 

[Yasar_TR]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

Well it all depends on how quickly US can integrate some of the improvements being tested by the engine manufacturers, on to the plane.
There is going to be a new Aesa radar with GaN based TR modules. This will be accompanied by new avionics.
A new engine is in the pipeline. Although P&W is trying hard to improve current f135, there is a GE derivative of an adaptive cycle engine waiting to replace the F135 with XA100 engine which may be starting to use Ceramic Matrix Composite technologies in the manufacturing of the critical parts of the engine.
P&W have already been awarded by the US government a grant of 437million dollars to develop an adaptive cycle engine for the F35. So they are not sitting on their laurels either.
We will most likely see engine power of F35 increasing to 45000lbf levels.

 

[Radonsider]

Well it all depends on how quickly US can integrate some of the improvements being tested by the engine manufacturers, on to the plane.
There is going to be a new Aesa radar with GaN based TR modules. This will be accompanied by new avionics.
A new engine is in the pipeline. Although P&W is trying hard to improve current f135, there is a GE derivative of an adaptive cycle engine waiting to replace the F135 with XA100 engine which may be starting to use Ceramic Matrix Composite technologies in the manufacturing of the critical parts of the engine.
P&W have already been awarded by the US government a grant of 437million dollars to develop an adaptive cycle engine for the F35. So they are not sitting on their laurels either.
We will most likely see engine power of F35 increasing to 45000lbf levels.

Apparently (according to some sources) Block 4 upgrades were extended to FY2029, but yeah TR3 will be applied to Lot15 to Lot17 which is the supporting base for Block 4 upgrades.

 

[Oublious]

The guy is talking neutral, you can use translator in the video.

 

[AzeriTank]

US spent billions in RAM research alone over 5 decades and still continue to do so. F-35 is their 4th stealth get and they already rolled out their 5th one (B-21) recently.

So, it is very natural they will continue to have the advantage in this regard over the others in foreseeable future.

Of course, that doesn't mean Turkish RAM wouldn't be good enough.

I am confident TFX will achieve frontal RCS of 20-25 dbcm as was set in the requirement.

View attachment 57149

And this is good enough for today's environment.

Also, stealth is relatively more advantageous in A2G mission compared to areal domain where both side suspected to operate 5th gen LO platforms against each other.

In this scenario, 5th gen fighter uses its main radar in limited manner. (So it's emission doesn't get caught on adversary’s EW suite) Rather, it primarily relies on its listening ability to detect, track and fire on adversary. (F35's exceptional sensor fusion ability and interoperability with other F-35s allows it to have complete passive firing solution)


But more importantly, as i emphasized previously- When talking about National security strategy, it is always important to understand that, It is not necessary ( or not even logical all the times) to match adversary’s exact A-Z qualitative capabilities to form a sound strategy and achieve credible deterrence.

you are totally wrong, that was the case with f35 and we get that you read a lot about it before, lets say f35 radar could detect stealth aircraft like tfx from 35 km away, or lets say 50km, but tfx radar could detect from 100-120km+ range and use other drones that has air to air missile, or use more expensive Gokhan missile from long distance. thats the case more power, bigger head is more important, thats why the head portion is big because the whole concept is build an awacs capable jet as power as or as bigger radar as possible.

 

[AzeriTank]

I think if KAAN finds large export orders the production date should be increased to 3 or 4 per months in order to not have long lead times

they say it just to get enough f110 engine for TFX, obviously they have thought about it already, but they also need to wait when Altay, Gokbey, Akinji, KE, Hurjet start exporting and money comes in

 

[Bürküt]

The guy is talking neutral, you can use translator in the video.

This man was a Rafale pilot if I remember correctly.I wish I knew French.

 

[I_Love_F16]

This man was a Rafale pilot if don't remember correctly.I wish I knew French.

Yep, in the French navy. I like the video he makes, not just because of the quality but because he’s also quiet neutral.

 

[Bürküt]

Yep, in the French navy. I like the video he makes, not just because of the quality but because he’s also quiet neutral.

Bro I was going to ask that can you summarize the video for us but I couldn't find your name to tag you .It's nice to see you.

 

[uçuyorum]

This man was a Rafale pilot if I remember correctly.I wish I knew French.

He doesn't say much beyond basic details people on this forum would know and most of his commentary is like all of these will require a lot of work especially KE being navalized for TCG Anadolu

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

lets say f35 radar could detect stealth aircraft like tfx from 35 km away, or lets say 50km, but tfx radar could detect from 100-120km+ range and use other drones that has air to air missile, or use more expensive Gokhan missile from long distance

Funny stuff! You have no idea what F-35 and the Meteor missile is capable of, do you?

 

[Radonsider]

Funny stuff! You have no idea what F-35 and the Meteor missile is capable of, do you?

Depends, performance of these are dependent on various factors

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

Depends, performance of these are dependent on various factors

So are ours. And what are the chances that our sensors will be able to detect them, before they detect us? The SSB seriously needs to convene a summit on assessing and countering the stealth jet and the BVRAAM threat looming on the horizon.

 

[Afif]

you are totally wrong, that was the case with f35 and we get that you read a lot about it before, lets say f35 radar could detect stealth aircraft like tfx from 35 km away, or lets say 50km, but tfx radar could detect from 100-120km+ range and use other drones that has air to air missile, or use more expensive Gokhan missile from long distance. thats the case more power, bigger head is more important, thats why the head portion is big because the whole concept is build an awacs capable jet as power as or as bigger radar as possible.

@AzeriTank i think you misunderstood what I wrote.
It is not that simple, neither TFX nor F-35 is a cakewalk for each other.
As @Radonsider pointed out, any outcome would depend on various factors and complex variables.

Also, F-35's Radar is not that small either. If BUFRIS's main forward looking AESA sensor has 2000+ T/R modules, then APG-81 has around 1650+ T/R modules. Also upcoming APG-85 will be GaN based like BUFRIS.

But here's one thing, F-35 has clear advantage over it’s near-peers is it unique and unrivalled sensor fusion engine developed by L3HARRIS.

But the most important Aspect of this 5th gen VS 5th gen scenario that I wanna emphasise on is, neither side would be able to use their main radar as freely as we are anticipating, because that would considerably increase the chances of being caught by adversary’s EW suite (more specifically, RWR)

"In 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers."

China’s Stealth Aircraft Program Will Face Advanced Defenses

web.archive.org

keep in mind, APG-77 is the best AESA out there that can change its frequency 1000times per second to keep its LPI. Yet it got caught on F-35's barracuda. ( an older version of F-35)

And more importantly it is not only jamming, if you get caught first you will be fired upon first.

"The details of the F-35 threat-detection system or RWR are classified, but interviews of pilots who have flown both the F-16CJ and the F-35 state that a single F-35 has the ability to locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision than can a flight of three F-16CJs that surround the emitter."

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process

This paper will discuss benchmarks for classic fighter technology, maneuverability, stealth, and tactics. It will examine the F-35’s faculties and compare them with the technology, performance, and cost of the generation of multirole fighters[1] that precedes it. That examination will reinforce...

www.heritage.org

And in the near future, it is not only the TFX that will operate in MUM-T configuration. F-35 will also have the same ability.
And not only that, just like KE equipped with Gokdogan, USAF is also planning to integrate classified AIM-260 with its future drones as was recently revealed.

However, if you specifically mean Greek F-35 vs KAAN, then Hellenic AF probably wouldn’t have the advantage to apply MUM-T Concept.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

"TEI has been ordered to complete the production of the KAAN's engine by 2028. Prof. Dr. Akşit: "The materials are quite expensive, F-35 engine was completed in 15 years, we're asked to have it complete by 5 years. The cost total is estimated to be around 3-5 billion USD.""
Made in a shorter timeframe, on a constrained budget, but it'll rival the opposition? Does it compute? I can't be the only who finds this ominous. We're yet to understand the gravity of the situation I think. Let's hope we will, sooner than later.

@AzeriTank i think you misunderstood what I wrote.
It is not that simple, neither TFX nor F-35 is a cakewalk for each other.
As @Radonsider pointed out, any outcome would depend on various factors and complex variables.

Also, F-35's Radar is not that small either. If BUFRIS AESA has around 2000 T/R modules APG-81 has around 1650 T/R modules. Also upcoming APG-85 would be GaN based like BUFRIS.

But here's one thing, F-35 has clear advantage over it’s near-peers is it unique and unrivalled sensor fusion engine developed by L3HARRIS.

But the most important Aspect of this 5th gen VS 5th gen scenario that I wanna emphasise on is, neither side would be able to use their main radar as freely as we are anticipating, because that would considerably increase the chances of being caught by adversary’s EW suite (more specifically, RWR)

“In 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers.”

China’s Stealth Aircraft Program Will Face Advanced Defenses

web.archive.org

keep in mind, APG-77 is the best AESA out there that can change its frequency 1000times per second to keep its LPI. Yet it got caught on F-35's barracuda. ( an older version of F-35)

And in the near future, it is not only the TFX that will operate in MUM-T configuration. F-35 will also have the same ability.
And not only that, just like KE equipped with Gokdogan, USAF is also planning to integrate classified AIM-260 with its future drones as was recently revealed.

However, if you specifically mean Greek F-35 vs KAAN, then Hellenic AF probably wouldn’t have the advantage to apply MUM-T.

We only need to take into account Greek inventory, so no JATM or drone interoperation. But the aforementioned duo is more than enough to establish air superiority on their own. Let's keep spending our precious budget on 10 more different helicopter or tank projects..