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Brave Janissary

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Told maybe a dozen times, the booster is for initial batches of Siper B1 and likely won't be present in Quadpackable / Naval variant of Siper B1 (will be replaced with a booster, slimmer and capable of TVC - by logic). First in queue is Hisar-N.
I dont see any official document about naval siper b1 will not be having a booster. If that stated before that. Sorry that's my fault.
On the other hand making a diffrent thrusted version of siper b1 is seems not logical for me when siper b2 will complete around 2-3 years.
 
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Anmdt

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I dont see any official document about naval siper b1 will doesnt have booster. If that stated before that. Sorry that's my fault.
No, but booster of Çakır has also changed on-the-go without much official disclosure. It was seen in brochures/figures. I am purely using my logic to say that B1 will be quadpacked, as dual-packing with current booster costs way more than quad-packing attempt + slimmer TVC booster. We have a way to go with quad-packing and B1 is not the first missile to receive such an update. Until then it will be used within single cell if TN demands a Siper B1N variant.

I am not getting into details of how much booster will be spent to gain altitude that will likely not be utilized and how long it can burn before a safe-separation to booster crash zone. Or how VL use going to affect range of the missile. In the end, it may provide little increase in range than Quadpacked Hisar-N and become pointless to use (occupying one cell and not much increment in engagement envelope).
 

uçuyorum

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I have a question about Gökdeniz and MAR-D. In the Barbaros modernization we see a MAR-D on a small second mast, alongside Smart-S but while Gökdeniz is not yet installed in concept it's missing an independent radar. Assumption is that it will use the ships radar. On TCG Istanbul however Gökdeniz comes with the Mar-D. My question is will rest of the ships systems on Istanbul be able to use the radar on the gökdeniz or is it independent like Phalanx? Because on Barbaros it makes a lot of sense to have 2 different S band and X band radars for different purposes. Also, does anyone know the range and performance of MAR-D? Is it enough to guide something like Hisar alongside Cenk-S in case of multiple engagements?

(The radar on Gökdeniz is Mar-D right?)
 

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I have a question about Gökdeniz and MAR-D. In the Barbaros modernization we see a MAR-D on a small second mast, alongside Smart-S but while Gökdeniz is not yet installed in concept it's missing an independent radar. Assumption is that it will use the ships radar. On TCG Istanbul however Gökdeniz comes with the Mar-D. My question is will rest of the ships systems on Istanbul be able to use the radar on the gökdeniz or is it independent like Phalanx? Because on Barbaros it makes a lot of sense to have 2 different S band and X band radars for different purposes. Also, does anyone know the range and performance of MAR-D? Is it enough to guide something like Hisar alongside Cenk-S in case of multiple engagements?

(The radar on Gökdeniz is Mar-D right?)
Gökdeniz has standalone mode (using it's own radar to scan/track), however this mode is also fed by main radar (upon detection and classification of the target). There were multiple images of Barbaros MLU which incorporated Phalanx, Gökdeniz (with AKR) and Gökdeniz (with MAR-D and AKR) in the forward position. The latest valid image is the latest. Based on logic i am speculating these;
  • MAR-D console provides a 3D scan screen to present what MAR-D sees / tracks / classifies. Since MAR-D is uplinked to ADVENT CMS, this information can be passed to any other console.
  • MAR-D on Gökdeniz may not be capable as a lone MAR-D on a mast, the power it can draw or the processing power available on gun may not as high-fidelity (in human terms) or farther in range.
  • Therefore, a standalone MAR-D is placed as a secondary X-band short range, high fidelity radar also to focus on sector scanning if necessary, while MAR-D on Gökdeniz is optimized for CIWS duties and secondarily for volume / sector scanning output.
  • MAR-D does not guide Hisar as in providing a datalink but it may acquire target parameters and pass it to datalink.
  • Barbaros may have 2 MAR-D but each optimized for different duties, while I-Class has Cenk-S and CIWS optimized MAR-D on Gökdeniz. (Cenk-S capabilities may supersede the Smart-S therefore a secondary MAR-D could have been pointless altogether).
  • You wasted my coffee break and you owe me a coffee.
 

UkroTurk

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I have a question about Gökdeniz and MAR-D. In the Barbaros modernization we see a MAR-D on a small second mast, alongside Smart-S but while Gökdeniz is not yet installed in concept it's missing an independent radar. Assumption is that it will use the ships radar. On TCG Istanbul however Gökdeniz comes with the Mar-D. My question is will rest of the ships systems on Istanbul be able to use the radar on the gökdeniz or is it independent like Phalanx? Because on Barbaros it makes a lot of sense to have 2 different S band and X band radars for different purposes. Also, does anyone know the range and performance of MAR-D? Is it enough to guide something like Hisar alongside Cenk-S in case of multiple engagements?

(The radar on Gökdeniz is Mar-D right?)
Dear i also can not understand it. Brain damaging.
İnstead of Three rotating radar, they could use 4 stationary AESA plates.
 

Anmdt

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Dear i also can not understand it. Brain damaging.
İnstead of Three rotating radar, they could use 4 stationary AESA plates.
Technically there is not 3 but 2 since one is for Gökdeniz, and i believe it is about the level of digitalization of the radar elements. I believe we will see a fixed face AESA surfacing with or after ARDA-X. Upscaled ARDA will be part of CAFRAD anyway.
 

UkroTurk

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Technically there is not 3 but 2 since one is for Gökdeniz, and i believe it is about the level of digitalization of the radar elements. I believe we will see a fixed face AESA surfacing with or after ARDA-X. Upscaled ARDA will be part of CAFRAD anyway.
Why shouldn't Gökdeniz use fixed face radars of the warship? Having an Autonomous CIWS is necessary? İf yes , i would put on Gökdeniz two fixed meteksans Retinar instead of rotating MAR-D since half turn of rotating radar is blind.
indir.jpeg


İmagine as if GÜRZ CIWS had just two fixed AESA panel. Or just need to fix two radars from GÜRZ on Gökdeniz.
images.jpeg
IMG_20231201_164448.jpg
 
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begturan

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Why shouldn't Gökdeniz use fixed face radars of the warship? Having an Autonomous CIWS is necessary? İf yes , i would put on Gökdeniz two fixed meteksans Retinar instead of rotating MAR-D since half turn of rotating radar is blind.
View attachment 63425

İmagine GÜRZ CIWS have just two fixed AESA panel. Or just need to fix two radars from GÜRZ on Gökdeniz.
View attachment 63426 View attachment 63428
images.jpg


There are two more AESA panels behind of Gürz
 

UkroTurk

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View attachment 63429

There are two more AESA panels behind of Gürz
I know there are 4. They are for 360degree real time coverage. But Gökdeniz at the back of the frigate so rear panels are useless.
2 plates could give 180 degree realtime coverage for Gökdeniz which positioned at the back.

IMG_20231201_220911.png

Edit: MAR-D is very powerful radar which consumes too much electric power for a autonomous CIWS. Retinal Radar is enough for Gökdeniz.


Edit2: if currently it is impossible to connect fixed plates, then let's make MAR-D antenna swinging thus you wouldn't waste half lifespan your expensive AESA antenna.



Or change the geometry of antenna like RAVEN AESA

DWLxjPgX4AA4Mq3.jpg_large.jpg



Or make it like fighters radar antenna


Long in short: instead of circular scan, Gökdeniz CIWS on the i -class and Barbaros class must have sectoral scan.
 
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Anmdt

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Why shouldn't Gökdeniz use fixed face radars of the warship? Having an Autonomous CIWS is necessary? İf yes , i would put on Gökdeniz two fixed meteksans Retinar instead of rotating MAR-D since half turn of rotating radar is blind.
View attachment 63425

İmagine as if GÜRZ CIWS had just two fixed AESA panel. Or just need to fix two radars from GÜRZ on Gökdeniz.
View attachment 63426 View attachment 63428
I misunderstood the question so interpreted as ship's radar. Gokdeniz was introduced before this radar tech so deliveries are being made with conventional layout. But we would naturally expect these radar techs to find a place in CIWS. I think Aselsan's radar suits better to it. And Meteksan's radar would be great as perimeter survailance radar or low-cost FCR for stabilized guns (against cheap drones etc.).
 

UkroTurk

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I really wonder why radar antenna should rotate just one direction which gives just circular scan.
İmagine Gökdeniz radar first turning right then stops and again turning back to the left. So it would be sectoral scan.
I don't think it's a big deal turning antenna back and forth.
 

Aloster

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I really wonder why radar antenna should rotate just one direction which gives just circular scan.
İmagine Gökdeniz radar first turning right then stops and again turning back to the left. So it would be sectoral scan.
I don't think it's a big deal turning antenna back and forth.
  • Sector Dimming and Sector Clipping features exist at MAR-D but I don't know how its work.
 

UkroTurk

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  • Sector Dimming and Sector Clipping features exist at MAR-D but I don't know how its work.
İt's electronically (AESA feature) not mechanically. Still there are blind spots behind the antenna.

İ meant, mechanically need to add reverse mechanism, forwarding motor.
Yelpaze hareketi gibi.
 

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İt's electronically (AESA feature) not mechanically. Still there are blind spots behind the antenna.

İ meant, mechanically need to add reverse mechanism, forwarding motor.
Yelpaze hareketi gibi.
Because there need to be a force to stop it then redirect, and it would be more prone to error. Things are easier with full rotation.
 

Brave Janissary

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I know there are 4. They are for 360degree real time coverage. But Gökdeniz at the back of the frigate so rear panels are useless.
2 plates could give 180 degree realtime coverage for Gökdeniz which positioned at the back.
Usage of Mar-d on gökdeniz which is located on i class looks like it isn’t meant for gökdeniz.

In my opinion (also many experts have same) for air defence engagements our barbaros mlu's and istif's don’t have enough sensor capability. Just because changeing mode smart-s mk2 to more accurate for missile engagment create a great gap the long range search capability of ship. Ship needs a more accurate second radar (x band) for seeking aerial targets in siper-hisar ranges. Also we will hopefully give a guidance support to missile until midcourse with akr-d b2 fcr. So Mar-d with 100-120 km range and x band capability create a great secondery x band radar for ship. Like Çafrad-Umr/Çafrad-çfr just more basic and limited version.

On the other hand aesa radar panels on gürz is not special for gürz. you can see same radar panels in hisar-d rf ship based fire control system project. İf you look last aselsan magazine page 147 looks like we will see same panels on istif class and maybe barbaros mlu.

But yes on gürz also have akr radar for fcr. Most probably, aesa panels will be used for search radar for gürz and fire control radar for hisar-d rf. (aesa panels are very multicapable things.)

And last with all of this idea , if I must give an answer to ; why locating of mar-d in istanbul on the gökdeniz when compared mlu more diffrent position ? Gökdeniz on barbaros mlu is front of the ships so there are already coverage area of smart-s mk2 radar. You need to separate radar from system. But on to istif class gökdeniz on the behind. There are no coverage problems. Mar-d already on the gökdeniz ecosystem and can work independent power source.
 
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UkroTurk

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Can you notice the difference between 3 Gökdeniz? There was an experimental one that MAR-D was seperated from turret so MAR-D not moving with turret.
IMG_20231209_142046.jpg
IMG_20231209_143450.jpg


Now here is my crazy project:

MAR-D is separated from turret and standing behind the gun. Not rotates but fixed 2 compact AESA panels on two sides thus the ship will have real time no gap coverage.

Also added UMTAS against USVs and SUNGUR against UAVs/AShM.

IMG_20231209_143340.jpg


IMG_20231209_145022.jpg


İt could be applied in Barbaros MLU as frontal CIWS.

Kinda GÜRZ +Gökdeniz
IMG_20231209_145317.jpg
 
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Anmdt

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Can you notice the difference between 3 Gökdeniz? There was an experimental one that MAR-D was seperated from turret so MAR-D not moving with turret.
View attachment 63738 View attachment 63739

Now here is my crazy project:

MAR-D is separated from turret and standing behind the gun. Not rotates but fixed 2 compact AESA panels on two sides thus the ship will have real time no gap coverage.

Also added UMTAS against USVs and SUNGUR against UAVs/AShM.

View attachment 63740

View attachment 63741

İt could be applied in Barbaros MLU as frontal CIWS.

Kinda GÜRZ +Gökdeniz
View attachment 63742
First one is Korkut-D, experimental version of 'Gokdeniz'. Second one is Gokdeniz integrated on Turkmenistan Navy Corvette, Third one is the last and final iteration of Gokdeniz with little modification. Both second-third images were made to fit Mar-D.

For the AESA we will see what Aselsan will come up with. They can just install 4 x planes to scan-track simultaneously or split scan and track like South Korean CIWS with AESA. LIG Nex1 and Hanwha had two concepts for what called CIWS-II.
 

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Why folks are asking for UMTAS when there is a 76mm gun.
 

Anmdt

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Why folks are asking for UMTAS when there is a 76mm gun.
UMTAS was never old school UMTAS, but GM B1 - B2 with BLOS capability. 4 UMTAS GM B2 in each side could be lovely. (Maybe will be).
No Umtas launchers on the sides of Gökdeniz, but there will be diver detection dipping sonars?

May not be in contract but planned for later? Haven't seen a foundation for Yalman turret either.
 
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