TR Navy Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

Excuse me for the dumb question, but why would you need an USV on a FAC?

I suggested this option by assuming requirements to include RHIB capability, and Ulaq Kama is said to be available for ISR duties in a configuration without a warhead. Assuming the warhead weight can be used for fuel + better propulsion to top 70 knots (from 60 knots with base propulsion configuration), this can meet the Navy's speed requirement on any platform.

However, going back to the FAC55 or MRTP51 concept for higher speeds makes this option obsolete.

Our modern FACs are on the heavier side of FACs. If i remember right, Lürssen classifies the Kılıç Class as a light corvette. At 40 knots, they are also not the fastest FAC out there.

Maybe due to low number of main combatants we have, over the years, FACs were also used for patrol duties, even on the EEZ, offshore.

If we actually have 10 Hisars in the future that can take this side role from FACs, they can be more specialized in fast attack duties. But as I see it, TN still somewhat wants FACs to act as small corvettes as a side role, hence MPAC, which is basically a light corvette, and heavier than Kılıç Class.

I think that was the case, once they had 10 OPVs secured, they wanted to go back to the earlier iteration with less payload but more agility.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Fast Attack Crafts are an interesting area of Naval Military Force.
Why do we need FACs?
Fast attack crafts are used for surveillance, intelligence gathering, patrol, interdiction, and most importantly, engagement with hostile forces.
A fast Attack Boat, being a smaller than any other naval combatant platform, if built with a stealthy design and configuration, will be an invaluable asset for any navy in littoral waters.
For Turkey, it is a very special case; Turkish Mediterranean and Aegean coasts have high mountains all along the coastline. When positioned in these waters with the mountains behind, these boats will blend in and be difficult to notice.
Having long range anti ship missiles like Atmaca onboard, makes them more lethal against even large combatant platforms. They can be configured as fast torpedo boats too. For ASW and ASUW missions they can be very useful.

A good example with an ASuW configuration can be a 48m long MRTP45:

60 knots speed with weapons like these onboard plus ;
270 ton displacement, 2000Nm range, a 76mm gun and 2 x Aselsan Stops :

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot / Fast Attack / Missile Craft

www.millisavunma.com

 

[Khagan1923]

I think that was the case, once they had 10 OPVs secured, they wanted to go back to the earlier iteration with less payload but more agility.

That was what I was gonna touch upon. Maybe the reason for the change of plans is the Hisar OPV project coming to fruition.

From what you have told in the past the project seemed to slowly evolve towards a light corvette with the requirements set by the Navy.

Now with Hisar available to take over that role the Navy could wish to go back to a conventional FAC?

I think we will see something more akin to FAC55 or MRTP51. Hope they don't delay it anymore.

Fast Attack Crafts are an interesting area of Naval Military Force.
Why do we need FACs?
Fast attack crafts are used for surveillance, intelligence gathering, patrol, interdiction, and most importantly, engagement with hostile forces.
A fast Attack Boat, being a smaller than any other naval combatant platform, if built with a stealthy design and configuration, will be an invaluable asset for any navy in littoral waters.
For Turkey, it is a very special case; Turkish Mediterranean and Aegean coasts have high mountains all along the coastline. When positioned in these waters with the mountains behind, these boats will blend in and be difficult to notice.
Having long range anti ship missiles like Atmaca onboard, makes them more lethal against even large combatant platforms. They can be configured as fast torpedo boats too. For ASW and ASUW missions they can be very useful.

A good example with an ASuW configuration can be a 48m long MRTP45:
View attachment 64017

60 knots speed with weapons like these onboard plus ;
270 ton displacement, 2000Nm range, a 76mm gun and 2 x Aselsan Stops :

View attachment 64018

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot / Fast Attack / Missile Craft

www.millisavunma.com

MoD Güler explained last week that the Hisar-Class OPV will be very useful in the Aegan. I think the Navy has decided to go back to a conventional FAC design to supplement the Hisar-Class Vessels in the Aegan with more agile and fast ships that can more easily blend in with the enviroment.

Maybe the goal is to have a mixed fleet of Hisar and FAC55/MRTP51 stationed mainly in the Aegan while the major surface fleet is concentrated in the Mediterranean.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

In todays Times the Threats have changed, tactical UAV like Bayraktar TB-2 with MAM-L & T can pose a serious Threat to FAC which lacks on sophisticatet AD like an VLS.

Is it for that Point not better to go for light Corvette ?

 

[Heartbang]

Fast Attack Crafts are an interesting area of Naval Military Force.
Why do we need FACs?
Fast attack crafts are used for surveillance, intelligence gathering, patrol, interdiction, and most importantly, engagement with hostile forces.
A fast Attack Boat, being a smaller than any other naval combatant platform, if built with a stealthy design and configuration, will be an invaluable asset for any navy in littoral Waters.
For Turkey, it is a very special case; Turkish Mediterranean and Aegean coasts have high mountains all along the coastline. When positioned in these waters with the mountains behind, these boats will blend in and be difficult to notice.
Having long range anti ship missiles like Atmaca onboard, makes them more lethal against even large combatant platforms. They can be configured as fast torpedo boats too. For ASW and ASUW missions they can be very useful.

A good example with an ASuW configuration can be a 48m long MRTP45:
View attachment 64017

60 knots speed with weapons like these onboard plus ;
270 ton displacement, 2000Nm range, a 76mm gun and 2 x Aselsan Stops :

View attachment 64018

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot / Fast Attack / Missile Craft

www.millisavunma.com

A FAC project like that should be optionally manned, and be simple and cheap enough to make thousands of.

 

[Anmdt]

Fast Attack Crafts are an interesting area of Naval Military Force.
Why do we need FACs?
Fast attack crafts are used for surveillance, intelligence gathering, patrol, interdiction, and most importantly, engagement with hostile forces.
A fast Attack Boat, being a smaller than any other naval combatant platform, if built with a stealthy design and configuration, will be an invaluable asset for any navy in littoral waters.
For Turkey, it is a very special case; Turkish Mediterranean and Aegean coasts have high mountains all along the coastline. When positioned in these waters with the mountains behind, these boats will blend in and be difficult to notice.
Having long range anti ship missiles like Atmaca onboard, makes them more lethal against even large combatant platforms. They can be configured as fast torpedo boats too. For ASW and ASUW missions they can be very useful.

A good example with an ASuW configuration can be a 48m long MRTP45:
View attachment 64017

60 knots speed with weapons like these onboard plus ;
270 ton displacement, 2000Nm range, a 76mm gun and 2 x Aselsan Stops :

View attachment 64018

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot

Onuk MRTP45 Yüksek Hızlı Hücumbot / Fast Attack / Missile Craft

www.millisavunma.com

I used to think that the Navy would go with MRTP 51 after the last speed of Admiral Tatlioglu, but I read again, carefully, and he states that there have been some modifications to suit the Navy's needs. This indicates that the design package is still in the hands of STM.

Notwithstanding all the effort put into the MPAC (or TTHB), as it was stated earlier by other users, this design has flexibility and change from patrol boat to fast patrol boat, armed as appropriate, equipped with sensors of the customer's choice, thus posing a great export potential.

With a slightly different speed requirement, I wonder if they will stick with MTU DE (cruise) + GE GT (booster) or go back to 3 x RR GT, with one being a booster. Or whether they will keep the MPAC concept or go back to FAC55, too much of a mystery for me.

 

[boredaf]

wonder if they will stick with MTU DE (cruise) + GE GT (booster) or go back to 3 x RR GT, with one being a booster.

I don't know anything about inner workings of our Navy or boat building, but, given that we seem to be building a closer relationship with RR and UK in general, I wouldn't be surprised if the choice ends up being RR.

 

[TheInsider]

For me, this is the best FAC configuration.
Speed: As high as possible.
IR signature and RCS: As low as possible
Weight: As low as possible
Weapons: 1x single barrel (900-1000 rounds per minute) 35mm autocannon with ATOM capability
1xRAM/Levent/Gökdeniz-ER PDMS, a combination of Atmaca, Çakır, and Kuzgun missiles. It should carry a big missile load in war conditions (up to 12 tons).
Sensors: X-band AESA radar, ESM, SATCOM, V/UHF radio, LPI radar, EO system with a laser designator, small UAV with vertical take-off capability, and laser warning receiver.
Countermeasures: Chaff, flare dispensers, self-protection jammer.
Endurance: 7 days
Operational capability: Sea state 5.

 

[Anmdt]

I don't know anything about inner workings of our Navy or boat building, but, given that we seem to be building a closer relationship with RR and UK in general, I wouldn't be surprised if the choice ends up being RR.

That would be surprising, especially after TEI was given the green light for assembly and partial production of the LM500 and LM2500, and has in the meantime secured a licence for repair, overhaul and maintenance of the LM2500.

 

[boredaf]

That would be surprising, especially after TEI was given the green light for assembly and partial production of the LM500 and LM2500, and has in the meantime secured a licence for repair, overhaul and maintenance of the LM2500.

As I said, I'm not that well-versed but THY's big purchase also came with RR as engine supplier which isn't what they used as far as I know, I feel like there is an aim to pivot away from US made engines across the board. But we'll see, maybe they'll go with what they know best and are most comfortable with.

 

[UkroTurk]

I think we puzzled with two term definitions. "Fast Attack Craft"and "Missile Boat".

I would prefer both of them so let's go for two different design.

1: Multipurpose FAC for longer range and endurance around 1000 miles with other cabalities. 600-700tons.But slower than missile boats.

2. Missile Boat for 500 miles range but faster and lighter 200-300tons.
I don't think USVs could fulfill this role currently.

Both must have high end sensors and self air defense capabilities.

Edit: Most important thing they all must be made from stealth materials. Especially missile boats.

 

[uçuyorum]

My expectation for navy slightly resembles that of russia though I know russia isn't best country to mirror. Nonetheless. you know they don't have the best budget and only one carrier which is always under repairs. But not having a carrier doesn't mean we shouldn't have proper airstrike capability for our navy, and a large inventory of cruise missiles is a formidable air force of its own when needed. We have seen russia use even kilo class submarines as missile trucks with kalibr when they no longer had air protection from Moskva, under a real war scenario it is doubtful if we will have enough control over nearby skies or when doing operations abroad. They also have karakurt class corvettes equipped with kalibr.

Right now we are starting to equip or vessels with Atmaca, which has limited capability against surface targets. However we are also working on Kara Atmaca and Gezgin. Once these are available, we should prioritize equipping as many vessels with these as possible. Reis class, Stm500, Milden, TF2000, TTFAC, Hisar OPV etc. Basically we should have enough to put on as many vessels as possible big and small. Having several hundred long range cruise missiles ready to strike, just like US navy with thsir arleigh burkes loaded with tomahawks, would give is significant force projection capability and be a deterrent against threats in nearby waters, even those with strong air defence would stuggle under large volley of such missiles. Especially submarines will be crucial when we may lack dominance over air and our surface vessels are threatened. I am writing this motivated by recent article on strategic importance of submarines by Cem Gürdeniz.

Also note that while we do not have the capability to purchase some of the key platforms like new fighters, new tanks and howitzer for at least several years for Land Forces and Air Force, at least our Navy should be given a higher budget to increase their deterrence capability.

 

[uçuyorum]

I think we puzzled with two term definitions. "Fast Attack Craft"and "Missile Boat".

I would prefer both of them so let's go for two different design.

1: Multipurpose FAC for longer range and endurance around 1000 miles with other cabalities. 600-700tons.But slower than missile boats.

2. Missile Boat for 500 miles range but faster and lighter 200-300tons.
I don't think USVs could fulfill this role currently.

Both must have high end sensors and self air defense capabilities.

If we try to make use as many common subsystems as possible I too support the idea of splitting project into two if given the budget. Light corvette and smaller FAC would make it easier to finalize requirements.

 

[UkroTurk]

Rapid Stealth light missile boat examples

Klewang-class fast attack craft - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Skjold class Norway

PLAN Type 23

İran is constructing

https://news.usni.org/2022/06/30/potential-new-stealth-missile-boat-under-construction-in-iran

Or such stealthy designs. No idea about sea worthiness

AFAIK at high speeds wave piercing design is important for missile boats.

STM`s Design for the Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Project

The Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft (FAC) Project was initiated in 2013 by the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB) in order to destroy/neutralize enemy elements and to ensure the survival of its own elements. Within the framework of the Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC)’s mission of sea...

www.defenceturkey.com

IMO FAC 55 Design is better for high speed.

 

[dBSPL]

When it comes to extreme speed and acceleration, the advantages offered by composite structure material classes become apparent due to the ship's tonnage, and hydrodynamic properties. Although there are some specific disadvantages in terms of initial production cost, service life and maintenance, the basic approach and the main demands that are tried not to be compromised in the TTHB project create a displacement range that can reach 700 or 800 tons in the steel hull. More precisely, finding the optimum point (cost/benefit) becomes a truly extreme challenge if you not compromise from speed.

Perhaps the TTHB could have been a bifurcated project from the beginning. Parallel or sequential production as two classes could have been considered. One is: high firepower approach, even with on sea-refillable scaled up Hydro-GIDS launcher (capable loitering ammunitions, and various types of mini ISTAR UAVs), a Gökdeniz CIWS on the aft deck, a scaled-down CENK radar suite and lots of USV consoles on bridge. While other is, abnormally speed centric with unmatched shoot-and-scoot capable missile boats on more composite material grades.

Heavy class attack boats in the 600/800 ton range with high endurance and well equipped for patrol missions. The other is missile boats with hulls under 50 meters and capable of cruising over 60 knots. And, thirdly, 20-25 meter unmanned missile boats designed to work entirely with these fast attack crafts, capable of carrying long-range missiles, including ATMACA. While platform diversity would lose some of the logistical advantages and perhaps increase overall costs, the tactical advantages and true versatility could be achieved in this way. When it comes to the main combatant fleet, i.e. giant frigates of 4-8 thousand tons, this may not be feasible, but the range of combatant ship classes we are discussing would not create a balance sheet that we could not handle.

 

[UkroTurk]

Long in short, So what i understand is Turkish Navy doesn't need Fast Attack Craft, The Navy needs multi purpose fast and light corvettes)

Give'm all multiple purpose ships



Look at the beauty which was eliminated

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

navyrecognition.com

Dear @Anmdt Was RMK's Design bad ?
The FMC 69 is fitted with 1x RHIB on the side and winch to lower it in the water

You could load Unmanned Surface Vessels into it.!

( Yanlarda USV veya Botlar için yerler bile varmış. Bu yeni dizaynda şimdi yok.)

Zamanında bu RMK dizayns pahalı demişler galiba şimdi istedikleri yine pahalı olacak. Hemde yeni dizayn şekilsiz. Koç düşmanlığı mı seziyorum?

 

[Anmdt]

Long in short, So what i understand is Turkish Navy doesn't need Fast Attack Craft, The Navy needs multi purpose fast and light corvettes)

View attachment 64044

Give'm all multiple purpose ships



Look at the beauty which was eliminated

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

navyrecognition.com

View attachment 64043

Dear @Anmdt Was RMK's Design bad ?
The FMC 69 is fitted with 1x RHIB on the side and winch to lower it in the water

You could load Unmanned Surface Vessels into it.!

( Yanlarda USV veya Botlar için yerler bile varmış. Bu yeni dizaynda şimdi yok.)

Zamanında bu RMK dizayns pahalı demişler galiba şimdi istedikleri yine pahalı olacak. Hemde yeni dizayn şekilsiz. Koç düşmanlığı mı seziyorum?

View attachment 64045
View attachment 64047
View attachment 64046

MPAC has RHIB spot for good eyes .

 

[UkroTurk]

EDIT:
@Yasar @Anmdt @dBSPL
@Kartal1

Tayfun Özberk

tayfunozberk.com

Author Tayfun Ozberk | Defense News

Tayfun Ozberk is a Turkey correspondent for Defense News.

www.defensenews.com

In this video, the former Navy Commander, Mr.Tayfun Özberk, expert talked about the 24-hour mission capacities of these ships. He said that the fuel tank and speed must be in a certain adjustment.

He said that having only a gas turbine engine was a disadvantage. Because gas turbines emit very high heat and detection becomes easier. They also consume too much fuel. According to him, the combination of 2 Diesel + 2 turbines is good.


In other words, this ship does not just quickly hit a predetermined naval target and quickly retreat. Hunting mission here could take time.
FAC arrives at its mission's zone rapidly but the enemy ship may be hiding behind an island. TTHB needs to search after him. These are a time-dependent process that includes other risk factors.
Also, the 76mm gun alone is not enough. He said the big gun and missiles were limited in close combat. He said it would be good to have another 30-40 mm gun at the back.


I wonder if UMTAS would eliminate this deficiency? UMTAS would also be useful against USVs. Also, the commander said that instead of 8 ATMACA, a combination of 4 ATMACA and 4 CAKIR would be better.


He underlined that AESA radar is essential and situational awareness is very important for TTHB. In my opinion, there should also be 4 fixed AESA radars.

He said: It is also good to have unmanned drones. Because we couldn't know in advance that if there is an enemy ship hiding behind the island. Therefore, according to the expert, an unmanned drone should carry out reconnaissance in advance.

Perhaps even a surprise attack from behind could be made with an unmanned surface vehicle.




Another issue I emphasize is that the biggest threat to TTHBs is underwater submarines. Does TTHB have anti submarine defense capability?


In short, this TTHB is not just about protecting our coasts, they also have the task of filling the time gap until the Frigates arrive.


He said these ships cannot go slow, they must be rapid. He said that going slow is boring for the the officers of this ship and it's like a torture for them


What i understand is Chasing warships throughout the Aegean, that is, in the sea of islands, is not a job that can be done in a short time.
Dear @Anmdt. Are there any mistakes with the my translation and conclusions ?

Ben sevmeye başladım bu dizayn gemiyi.

 

[Test7]

 

[Afif]

She is sooo gorgeous! Can I marry her?