TR Navy Naval Programs

[UkroTurk]

CENK is said to be roughly 3 times that of Smart S

Price or energy consumption?

Smart 145kw so 3x 145: app 450kW?
Mar-D might need 145kW
ARDA -X: ? But ground vehicle could supply 4 AESA panels

So the question is our warships could generate 600kW for AESA radars?


EDIT:

Wait! AESA radars don't seem consume too much unless They make Electronic Attack.

Why do solid state AESA radars tend to have lower peak power than CFA fed PESA radars like SPY-1 and does that matter?

Answer (1 of 3): Radar power is incredibly important, for 2 reasons. First, it directly improves the sensitivity of the system and thus the effective range. A 10 times more powerful radar will allow you to see about 80% farther. That’s a big deal. Second, high-end AESA radars are increasingly use...

www.quora.com

 

[Bogeyman]

I have no clue. Logically , if CENK-S needs Megawatt Energy and consumes more fuel, having additional MAR-D will enable fuel saving. When you don't need long range, high altitude S-band frequency, you could switch MAR-D which is X-band for self defense mode.

I assume we are all agree with that self defense mode of a warship is vital. Self defense is more prior than long range detection.


You can't just turn self defense systems and radars off for sake of fuel.



On the other hand i don't think CENK-S requires megawatt supply like SPY-6.

On internet it is being said AESA of USN ships effects on fuel consumption 10-20 %.

Look at the new Yavuz modernisation, they will have 2x MAR-D plus PESA plus AKR etc. Supply of electricity doesn't seem big problem since we don't use 4x SPY/6 panels.

The capacity of the radars may not affect fuel consumption much. But electronic warfare is not like that. If you press high power with your electronic warfare capabilities at critical times, the fuel tank will reach the bottom. Therefore, you need to consider the cost of the entire operation to the ship and average it.

Beyond consuming the fuel tank, you must create a power package suitable for the high power needs of electronic warfare systems. AESA radars and increasing number of modules will result in higher power demand. Therefore, if you do not want to compromise your electronic warfare capabilities in times of war, you need to distribute your power plan carefully. Adapt what you think about Cenk-S to mini Çafrad. You will understand what I mean.

 

[UkroTurk]

The capacity of the radars may not affect fuel consumption much. But electronic warfare is not like that. If you press high power with your electronic warfare capabilities at critical times, the fuel tank will reach the bottom. Therefore, you need to consider the cost of the entire operation to the ship and average it.

Beyond consuming the fuel tank, you must create a power package suitable for the high power needs of electronic warfare systems. AESA radars and increasing number of modules will result in higher power demand. Therefore, if you do not want to compromise your electronic warfare capabilities in times of war, you need to distribute your power plan carefully. Adapt what you think about Cenk-S to mini Çafrad. You will understand what I mean.

BTW Çafrad is tested on TCG Göksu.
So can you see the frigate can generate enough power even for ÇAFRAD.

I haven't heard about mini Çafrad.


2024: ARDA

I can't understand why ÇAFRAD has both X-band ÇFR and AYR? AYR just for semi-active ESSMs? Still old ESSM stockpile? or AYR for Electronic Attack ?

 

[B_A]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745313335434698965

The Naval Journal published an important review article on France's Barrucuda Class Nuclear Propulsion Submarine (SSN).

In the article written by Navy Lieutenant Colonel Deniz Aytan, important compilations on nuclear-propelled submarines were included. In the article, especially the Barrucuda Class Nuclear Propelled Submarines of the French Navy were examined in detail. The article also includes important references to the 'National Nuclear Propelled Submarine', which is planned to be built in the medium term.

 

[Anmdt]

BTW Çafrad is tested on TCG Göksu.
So can you see the frigate can generate enough power even for ÇAFRAD.

I haven't heard about mini Çafrad.


2024: ARDA
View attachment 64626


I can't understand why ÇAFRAD has both X-band ÇFR and AYR? AYR just for semi-active ESSMs? Still old ESSM stockpile? or AYR for Electronic Attack ?
View attachment 64627

View attachment 64628

It has been tested with its own generator, cooling system, etc.

 

[Anmdt]

BTW Çafrad is tested on TCG Göksu.
So can you see the frigate can generate enough power even for ÇAFRAD.

I haven't heard about mini Çafrad.


2024: ARDA
View attachment 64626


I can't understand why ÇAFRAD has both X-band ÇFR and AYR? AYR just for semi-active ESSMs? Still old ESSM stockpile? or AYR for Electronic Attack ?
View attachment 64627

View attachment 64628

AYR is for illumination, data-links and so on, and CFR could also perform these tasks by allocating resources through trade-offs of search function. The reason the Navy does not remove it may be the future need for large bandwidth data links that may arise with smart munition networks. (e.g. TF-2000 will be able to adopt a munition fired by F-16s, drones, other ships, etc.).

Mar-D might need 145kW

MAR-D MKI was 6kW, not sure of MKII but could be higher. AN SPY-1 of the first few blocks consume 6MW and not all panels are active at the at the same time. So 4 x AESA panels will not be rated at 4 x power withdrawal, unless each panel is connected to a separate processing unit. Note: Each panel requires cooling and associated auxiliaries.

 

[TheInsider]

Price or energy consumption?
View attachment 64625
Smart 145kw so 3x 145: app 450kW?
Mar-D might need 145kW
ARDA -X: ? But ground vehicle could supply 4 AESA panels

So the question is our warships could generate 600kW for AESA radars?


EDIT:

Wait! AESA radars don't seem consume too much unless They make Electronic Attack.

Why do solid state AESA radars tend to have lower peak power than CFA fed PESA radars like SPY-1 and does that matter?

Answer (1 of 3): Radar power is incredibly important, for 2 reasons. First, it directly improves the sensitivity of the system and thus the effective range. A 10 times more powerful radar will allow you to see about 80% farther. That’s a big deal. Second, high-end AESA radars are increasingly use...

www.quora.com

Peak power is not continuous power. It is a momentary power spike. Mar-D consumes around 6kW.

 

[UkroTurk]

So we can put AESA radars as much as we desire

 

[TR_123456]

@TheInsider ,provide a real source.

 

[AlterUnd]

Wrong. ARMERKOM is responsible for the concept and detailed design of TF-2000, not ASFAT. ARMERKOM designed Milgem and is also designing Milden.

What is wrong here?
MILGEM Design Project Office, also Part of ARMERKOM / Istanbul Shipyard has completed conceptual and preliminary design phase and handed this over to ASFAT for detail design phase. Do you have slightest idea about stages of ship design? You can not start construction with preliminary design, period.

 

[TheInsider]

What is wrong here?
MILGEM Design Project Office, also Part of ARMERKOM / Istanbul Shipyard has completed conceptual and preliminary design phase and handed this over to ASFAT for detail design phase. Do you have slightest idea about stages of ship design? You can not start construction with preliminary design, period.

YEs, ARMERKOM is also responsible for detailed design. ASFAT has no experts/personnel to conduct detailed design of an AAW destroyer.

 

[Anmdt]

What is wrong here?
MILGEM Design Project Office, also Part of ARMERKOM / Istanbul Shipyard has completed conceptual and preliminary design phase and handed this over to ASFAT for detail design phase. Do you have slightest idea about stages of ship design? You can not start construction with preliminary design, period.

Bunch of stuff that we have spoken in last few years in here; I was expecting a steel cutting last year in about April with MILDEN (aware of being for political reason). What did go wrong there?

TF2000 is a done deal, it needs no SSIK to commence. In fact, going on at preliminary design stage since last (2022) June.

The company that will conduct "main contractor" duties for detail design ( production design) and prototype construction (first hull) is also selected (through a rumored, however, not existing tender process). Since there is a time until preliminary design stage is concluded, it needs no SSIK at the moment.

I-Class is completed, all need to be done is launching the construction programme, all technical drawings, scantlings, technical packages, logistic documents are ready. It doesn't consume man-hours in terms of design studies.

Next goal is TF2000 and MILDEN that is going to be challenging.

Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that, a new lighter design can be derived easily similar to the Type 31.

Conceptual design is completed and they have selected a company to continue contract-detail design stages as main contractor. I think they will start detailing within this year and complete by end of 2024.

Technically at this stage they can work on lighter version alternatively from another company who was rivaling the selected company. But is it financially possible? I don't know.


Navy likes to work on their own design when it comes to larger platforms. But who knows, if they change the mind they could work with Dearsan.

ASFAT is the main contractor of TF2000, Kuasar Marin is likely the design - engineering services sub-major-contractor assigned by ASFAT.

We need TF2000 in the longer term if we are to have a proper presence in Libya and Somalia. That's why the project is given time until after 2030, because it needs CAFRAD and EW (not talking or Ares series) and missiles (Siper B2, Gezgin) to mature. It wasn't listed in today's SSIK because it's already covered and going on, within the design phase. 4 new Class I missiles should possibly replace 4 Gabyas by 2030 and the remaining 4 Gabyas will be retired as TF2000 approaches.

Frankly, I doubt it, but we'll see. They have already gone a long way (from SSB's point of view and financially) by taking it from 7000 to 8500 tonnes. Last I saw they had taken the conceptual design we saw in the latest IDEF to the functional/contract design stage. I expect minor revisions beyond this point, which may include PDMS and other things that were not included in the conceptual design (by choice, such as the EW suite).


Unfortunately the TF4500 was just a concept design made by STM to be offered during feasibility studies made for the TF2000, after that failed (we have seen the course the Navy has taken) they took the design out in public and at fairs, then it faded away. STM sometimes acts proactively. (OPV designs, TS1700, STM500 et al.)

Clearly, He does not know who you are, yet nobody does .

 

[AlterUnd]

YEs, ARMERKOM is also responsible for detailed design. ASFAT has no experts/personnel to conduct detailed design of an AAW destroyer.

Uh no, biggest nonsense, Armerkom never handles detail design, it is always outsourced along with project management, see Ada, Istif Class, ADKG (this one, was not even handled conceptually and in fact, merely overseen by DPO as PKO done for other projects) and so on. They only do conceptual design and preliminary design with assistance of private design offices, they don't have that many personnel to work on detail design, or project management. I can give you a long list of subcontractors in whole, for TF2000 but why would i care to educate someone referencing a dinasour without even quoting him. LOL.
Learn some shipbuilding and then let's talk about it all again, please.

 

[TheInsider]

Uh no, biggest nonsense, Armerkom never handles detail design, it is always outsourced along with project management, see Ada, Istif Class, ADKG (this one, was not even handled conceptually and in fact, handled by PKO) and so on. They only do conceptual design and preliminary design with assistance of private design offices, they don't have that many personnel to work on detail design, or project management. I can give you a long list of subcontractors in whole, for TF2000 but why would i care to educate someone referencing a dinasour without even quoting him. LOL.
Learn some shipbuilding and then let's talk about it all again, please.

ASFAT won't design TF-2000. ASFAT has no such capability. I don't know if there is anyone other than ARMERKOM that can design an AAW destroyer but certainly not ASFAT. It is like saying Kayseri tank maintenance facility will design Altay.

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/ArsivAskeriTarih/icerik/deniz-teknik-komutanligi-tarihcesi/

 

[AlterUnd]

ASFAT won't design TF-2000. ASFAT has no such capability. I don't know if there is anyone other than ARMERKOM that can design an AAW destroyer but certainly not ASFAT.

It is not Armerkom but Milgem DPO, these are separate identities. Neither Milgem DPO did the detail design phase of Ada or Istif class ships, these were handled by STM and their subcontractors (Delta Marine, Kuasar Marin, Navtek were the majority for structural and overall detail design). ASFAT has a close relationship with other design offices that have worked for PN Milgem, Jinnah, ADKG (not STM) but they may also outsource some of this to STM. ASFAT is responsible for the overall project management, including the construction of the first vessel and logistics (ordering and planning the integration of equipment and negotiating with suppliers), and they will manage the detail design phase. If you have ever been inside Milgem DPO, you would know that there are too few people and you would be surprised to see that they could even work out the preliminary design, so far. (Like Milden DPO, they are less than fingers in two hands).

 

[TheInsider]

It is not Armerkom but Milgem DPO, these are separate identities. Neither Milgem DPO did the detail design phase of Ada or Istif class ships, these were handled by STM and their subcontractors (Delta Marine, Kuasar Marin, Navtek were the majority for structural and overall detail design). ASFAT has a close relationship with other design offices that have worked for PN Milgem, Jinnah, ADKG (not STM) but they may also outsource some of this to STM. ASFAT is responsible for the overall project management, including the construction of the first vessel and logistics (ordering and planning the integration of equipment and negotiating with suppliers), and they will manage the detail design phase. If you have ever been inside Milgem DPO, you would know that there are too few people and you would be surprised to see that they could even work out the preliminary design, so far. (Like Milden DPO, they are less than fingers in two hands).

Wrong.

"Preliminary and contract design studies for the İstif Class Frigate, the ship of the MİLGEM Project, have been completed,
Most of the detailed design works based on the construction activities initiated in 2017 have been completed.
Within the scope of the signed contract, the detailed design work and documentation initiated by the contractor company for the remaining sections are being reviewed and approved on behalf of the Dz.K.K."

Source

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/ArsivAskeriTarih/icerik/deniz-teknik-komutanligi-tarihcesi/

 

[AlterUnd]

Wrong.

"Preliminary and contract design studies for the İstif Class Frigate, the ship of the MİLGEM Project, have been completed,
Most of the detailed design works based on the construction activities initiated in 2017 have been completed.
Within the scope of the signed contract, the detailed design work and documentation initiated by the contractor company for the remaining sections are being reviewed and approved on behalf of the Dz.K.K."

Source

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/ArsivAskeriTarih/icerik/deniz-teknik-komutanligi-tarihcesi/

Yeah you know better, whatever

Then what did STM do, or what for they were paid dozens of millions (also Kuasar) :

STM - MiLGEM Projesi

Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri'nin Denizaltı Savunma Harbi ve Keşif Karakol Gemisi Projesi hakkında bilgi almak için tıklayın.

www.stm.com.tr

Within the scope of the Patrol and Antisubmarine Warfare Ship (MiLGEM) Project, which is one of the most important projects of the Turkish Armed Forces, the following stages were carried out between the Presidency of the Republic of Turkiye Presidency of Defence Industriesand our company:
Signing of "Agreement on Design Services for Prototype Vessel, Construction of the Platform, and Procurement of Equipment, Materials and Services" in 2006,
Revision of the agreement to cover the 1st and 3rd package design, construction and outfitting, materials and services needed for Prototype Ship in 2007,
Revision and resigning the “Agreement on Design Services for MiLGEM, Construction of the Platform, and Procurement of Equipment, Materials and Services” to cover the 2nd ship of MiLGEM Project in 2009,





Inclusion of the 3rd and 4th ships in the scope of the agreement in 2014, and unlike the first two ships, undertaking the responsibility of supply and integration of the main propulsion system.
Within the scope of the National Ship (MiLGEM) Project, which was realised with the vision and determined attitude put forward by the Presidency of Defence Industries and the Naval Forces Command and where the national facilities of Turkiye are used to the maximum extent, the design and integration of a complicated surface battleship equipped with today’s technology with high standards has been realised in Turkiye for the first time using national facilities with the support of the domestic industry.
As STM, we have undertaken important tasks for the provision of all services, including ship design, classification services, model tests, main propulsion system, all other systems, construction/outfitting materials to be used in the construction of the ship, and the design that will be needed during construction. We have also been authorised to export the Ada-class Corvette platform where the MİLGEM Project is implemented.

You are probably a child who has no memory of the Milgem project, as it had no media presence at the time, so I invite you to stop insisting on your own illiteracy. Again, Milgem DPO has literally ~10 staff, or even down to 7 last time I visited them. If you can do detail design with 10 people, then kudos to you. You know shipbuilding better than we do.

I've got to get back to work, I've got to work hard to get Armerkom to finish TF2000 this year to lay the keel in Q4, as I'm not at university and have my free time between finals like most people do. Nice talking to you all.

 

[TheInsider]

Yeah you know better, whatever

Then what did STM do, or what for they were paid dozens of millions (also Kuasar) :

STM - MiLGEM Projesi

Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri'nin Denizaltı Savunma Harbi ve Keşif Karakol Gemisi Projesi hakkında bilgi almak için tıklayın.

www.stm.com.tr

You are likely a kid not aholding slightest memory of Milgem project as it had no media appearance back then, so i invite you to stop insisting on your own illiteracy.

They designed monkey sections of the İstif class to gain experience and oversaw construction work after ARMERKOM designed most of the ship and passed it to others.

 

[AlterUnd]

They designed monkey sections of the İstif class to gain experience and oversaw construction work after ARMERKOM designed most of the ship and passed it to others.

Lol literally not true, please stop all the nonsense. Major consultant of Milgem was not even a personnel of Milgem DPO. Once again, i am stating the Armerkom =/= DPO.

 

[Anmdt]

ASFAT won't design TF-2000. ASFAT has no such capability. I don't know if there is anyone other than ARMERKOM that can design an AAW destroyer but certainly not ASFAT. It is like saying Kayseri tank maintenance facility will design Altay.

https://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/ArsivAskeriTarih/icerik/deniz-teknik-komutanligi-tarihcesi/

apparently ex director ASFAT is lying.

"Preliminary design has almost been completed, contract design phase is duty of ASFAT". December 4, preliminary design is "almost" to be completed, contract design is "almost" to be commenced, and laying keel in Q4 2024? Have they invented time machine. Even if done so, that would be purely political, like in TCG İstanbul.

Technology is a nice blessing for us all, unless one is Binali.

Resmi Açıklamalarla TF-2000 Hava Savunma Muhriplerinde Son Durum

Türkiye, TF-2000 Hava Savunma Harbi Muhribi (HSHM) için çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. Türkiye'nin ilk yerli muhriplerinin üretileceği TF-2000'de son durumu derledik

www.savunmasanayist.com