TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[what]

Keep the non development stuff out of this.

 

[infrared]

​

Propaganda before the election: Turkey relies on "Kaan" - Converted F-16 is Erdogan's prestige object

Status: 02/22/2024, 5:27 p.m.

From: Erkan Pehlivan

CommentsPrintShare

The fighter jet "Kaan" completes its maiden flight. Before the local elections in Turkey, the aircraft is primarily intended to give President Erdogan a boost.

Ankara - Turkey wants its own combat aircraft of the so-called 5th Generation to produce. That's why the "Kaan" counts as a prestige project of the Turkish defense industry. On Tuesday (20. February) the machine took off for the first time.

The Kaan is also an alternative to the American F-35. However, Turkey was excluded from the F-35 program after purchasing the Russian air defense system S-400. Now Ankara even has problems buying F-16 fighter planes from the USA.

The joy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his government was all the greater. "Today we experienced one of the proudest days of the Turkish defense industry," Erdogan wrote on X and announced further tests for the Kaan. "A historic day for the Turkish defense industry! The Turkish stealth fighter jet of the 5th Generation has successfully completed its maiden flight. We are proud of everyone involved," his Finance Minister Mehmet Simsek also wrote on X.

Kaan - Western technology that was modified in Turkey

But there is also criticism of the Kaan, especially because it is initially only a prototype and does not contain much Turkish technology in it. The Kaan was designed by BAE-Systems from Great Britain, its software comes from the French group Dassault, explains security expert Özge Kilinc in conversation with fr.de from IPPEN.MEDIA. "The F110-GE engines come from the USA, which are also installed in the F-16 fighter aircraft." Western technologies are built into the Kaan, which were only modified in Turkey. Kilinc was editor-in-chief of the former military magazine Turkish Defence and reporter of the former industry magazine Savunma ve Havacılık.

Currently, the prototype is not yet a combat aircraft of the 5th. Generation. It is still visible on the radar screen and still does not meet the other requirements for this, says the expert. "It's not easy to be a combat aircraft of the 5th. Generation if you have not previously manufactured first, second, third and fourth generation combat aircraft. This all looks like election propaganda."

Kaan will not be able to replace F-16 from the USA

In addition, the Kaan will not be able to replace the existing and the F-16 ordered from the USA so quickly. "Finally, only ten machines are to be manufactured by 2029," says Kilinc. This will prove to be difficult. It is not yet clear whether, for example, there will be a separate engine for the Kaan by then or whether a foreign company will deliver it.

Other experts are also skeptical whether the Kaan is a miracle weapon of the 5th. Generation acts. Because of the cockpit design, the desired half-camoufling capability of the Kaan probably cannot be achieved, writes Remzi Barlas, who was previously chief engineer for drones for the state aviation group TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries), in a post on Linkedin. This is also the company that received the order for the Kaan.

Barlas was released from the state corporation and later had to go to prison for two months. He was accused of "espionage." The engineer had made himself unpopular because he accused the government of preferring the "Baykar" group in the construction of military drones. By the way, the company belongs to the family of Erdogan's son-in-law SelcukBayraktar, who also builds the famous "Bayraktar-TB2."

Turkish technology for Kaan not mature

It is unclear when ASELSAN's AESA (Active Electronic Scanning Array) radar, which is the backbone of the aircraft's main impact capacity, will reach its full capability. Two F-110 engines, which are also used in F-16 aircraft, were temporarily used in Kaan/MMU, but it is not possible to achieve the range and load capacity originally intended for the aircraft with these engines," says Barlas.

It currently seems impossible to procure an engine with the performance intended in the design of the aircraft. "Even if an engine for this aircraft is found, the first operational capability will be achieved in ten years at best," says Barlas. "In view of the fact that the domestic engine development at TEI (TUSAS Engine Industries Inc.) will continue for many years, the more likely period is about 15 years."

Arms industry as an advertising platform for Erdogan

The Kaan will be held before the upcoming local elections on the 31st. March presented. All the more political calculation is suspected in the demonstration of the Kaan. "The armaments industry was Erdoğan's most important propaganda platform in the last elections. The first flight of the Kaan aircraft has been postponed several times. The reason for these postponements was that the first flight should take place before the elections. Although the flight is technically problematic, it is important for propaganda," says Turkish investigative journalist Cevheri Güven, who lives in exile in Germany. And Erdogan has set himself a lot of goals. On the 1st In April, the metropolis of Istanbul and the capital Ankara are to be back in the hands of its AKP.

Propaganda vor der Wahl: Türkei setzt auf „Kaan“ – Umgebaute F-16 ist Erdogans Prestigeobjekt

Der Kampfjet „Kaan“ absolviert seinen Jungfernflug. Vor den Kommunalwahlen in der Türkei soll das Flugzeug vor allem Präsident Erdogan Schub verleihen.

www.merkur.de

Haha, it seems Germans are trying to delay their prime time passing away.

Assuming there is no translation error, Remzi Barlas does not say "stealthiness cannot be achieved" but says the shape of the canopy poses a risk for that. He has some valid points on his other statements and finishes his article saying even with inferior F110's and initial versions of Aselsan's AESA radar, Kaan can still perform the roles expected from it.

In short, rubbish article with dishonest intentions.

 

[Heartbang]

does not say "stealthiness cannot be achieved" but says the shape of the canopy poses a risk for that.

What does he mean by that, any ideas?

He has some valid points on his other statements

In this article or in general? And what are those?

 

[Rooxbar]

​

Propaganda before the election: Turkey relies on "Kaan" - Converted F-16 is Erdogan's prestige object

Status: 02/22/2024, 5:27 p.m.

From: Erkan Pehlivan

CommentsPrintShare

The fighter jet "Kaan" completes its maiden flight. Before the local elections in Turkey, the aircraft is primarily intended to give President Erdogan a boost.

Ankara - Turkey wants its own combat aircraft of the so-called 5th Generation to produce. That's why the "Kaan" counts as a prestige project of the Turkish defense industry. On Tuesday (20. February) the machine took off for the first time.

The Kaan is also an alternative to the American F-35. However, Turkey was excluded from the F-35 program after purchasing the Russian air defense system S-400. Now Ankara even has problems buying F-16 fighter planes from the USA.

The joy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his government was all the greater. "Today we experienced one of the proudest days of the Turkish defense industry," Erdogan wrote on X and announced further tests for the Kaan. "A historic day for the Turkish defense industry! The Turkish stealth fighter jet of the 5th Generation has successfully completed its maiden flight. We are proud of everyone involved," his Finance Minister Mehmet Simsek also wrote on X.

Kaan - Western technology that was modified in Turkey

But there is also criticism of the Kaan, especially because it is initially only a prototype and does not contain much Turkish technology in it. The Kaan was designed by BAE-Systems from Great Britain, its software comes from the French group Dassault, explains security expert Özge Kilinc in conversation with fr.de from IPPEN.MEDIA. "The F110-GE engines come from the USA, which are also installed in the F-16 fighter aircraft." Western technologies are built into the Kaan, which were only modified in Turkey. Kilinc was editor-in-chief of the former military magazine Turkish Defence and reporter of the former industry magazine Savunma ve Havacılık.

Currently, the prototype is not yet a combat aircraft of the 5th. Generation. It is still visible on the radar screen and still does not meet the other requirements for this, says the expert. "It's not easy to be a combat aircraft of the 5th. Generation if you have not previously manufactured first, second, third and fourth generation combat aircraft. This all looks like election propaganda."

Kaan will not be able to replace F-16 from the USA

In addition, the Kaan will not be able to replace the existing and the F-16 ordered from the USA so quickly. "Finally, only ten machines are to be manufactured by 2029," says Kilinc. This will prove to be difficult. It is not yet clear whether, for example, there will be a separate engine for the Kaan by then or whether a foreign company will deliver it.

Other experts are also skeptical whether the Kaan is a miracle weapon of the 5th. Generation acts. Because of the cockpit design, the desired half-camoufling capability of the Kaan probably cannot be achieved, writes Remzi Barlas, who was previously chief engineer for drones for the state aviation group TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries), in a post on Linkedin. This is also the company that received the order for the Kaan.

Barlas was released from the state corporation and later had to go to prison for two months. He was accused of "espionage." The engineer had made himself unpopular because he accused the government of preferring the "Baykar" group in the construction of military drones. By the way, the company belongs to the family of Erdogan's son-in-law SelcukBayraktar, who also builds the famous "Bayraktar-TB2."

Turkish technology for Kaan not mature

It is unclear when ASELSAN's AESA (Active Electronic Scanning Array) radar, which is the backbone of the aircraft's main impact capacity, will reach its full capability. Two F-110 engines, which are also used in F-16 aircraft, were temporarily used in Kaan/MMU, but it is not possible to achieve the range and load capacity originally intended for the aircraft with these engines," says Barlas.

It currently seems impossible to procure an engine with the performance intended in the design of the aircraft. "Even if an engine for this aircraft is found, the first operational capability will be achieved in ten years at best," says Barlas. "In view of the fact that the domestic engine development at TEI (TUSAS Engine Industries Inc.) will continue for many years, the more likely period is about 15 years."

Arms industry as an advertising platform for Erdogan

The Kaan will be held before the upcoming local elections on the 31st. March presented. All the more political calculation is suspected in the demonstration of the Kaan. "The armaments industry was Erdoğan's most important propaganda platform in the last elections. The first flight of the Kaan aircraft has been postponed several times. The reason for these postponements was that the first flight should take place before the elections. Although the flight is technically problematic, it is important for propaganda," says Turkish investigative journalist Cevheri Güven, who lives in exile in Germany. And Erdogan has set himself a lot of goals. On the 1st In April, the metropolis of Istanbul and the capital Ankara are to be back in the hands of its AKP.

Propaganda vor der Wahl: Türkei setzt auf „Kaan“ – Umgebaute F-16 ist Erdogans Prestigeobjekt

Der Kampfjet „Kaan“ absolviert seinen Jungfernflug. Vor den Kommunalwahlen in der Türkei soll das Flugzeug vor allem Präsident Erdogan Schub verleihen.

www.merkur.de

Interesting that this pkk sympathizer has gone to so much length to search far and wide to find the only two people who would bad mouth KAAN because they are fired for leaking info and have also probably similar ethnic resentment. Goes to show how butthurt the institutions who employ him must be.

P.S. guy's twitter is so sad; he has zero likes on most of his posts . Also seems like the guy has put words in the mouths of his interviewees. desperate!

 

[infrared]

What does he mean by that, any ideas?

He says canopy's shape may affect stealthiness negatively and does not elaborate. My further comments would only be speculation. You may read his article here.

In this article or in general? And what are those?

Not the German article, but Barlas has some valid points whose article is cited by that German article altering his original statements. For example, he questions the feasibility of meeting range and payload requirements with F110s, which is a totally valid criticism.

 

[Nilgiri]

Luneberg lenses are not needed as there is no RAM on the aircraft. RCS of the geometry can be calculated with engineering simulation programs with a good enough result so there is nothing to hide at the moment.

Not really as RAM provides the final steps after what shaping has done in major way first. Shaping is by far the major bulk of the RCS reduction exercise in 5th gen.

So I was talking about the shaping aspect and its measurement as it exists in this stage of Kaan's dev....in this case a flight would provide a substantial first look into the relevant far field measurement verification if desired and planned by the relevant teams.

Simulations are good and all, but nothing beats field testing. Simulations themselves are based and calibrated a huge degree on data from field tests.

So there is plenty to take caution about (and likewise measure whenever possible) with the shaping side at this stage well before final RAM stages.

I've chatted about it with @Anmdt before:

TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Why dont we cooperate in this project and involve more countries? For example, we are keeping it quiet for Uyghurs, China shall aid us in our project? If we could shorten 10 years to sth like 7 years or less wouldnt it be better? One doesn't just cooperate in a 5th gen stealth fighter project...

defencehub.live

Folks that are interested can find more extensive literature on the subject themselves, here is one that does a small summary:

https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/EJC96682

Flight would increase the distance available compared to the ground facilities....and also be able to use more types of real world radars.

There is definite scope to do these in tests before and after RAM itself.

 

[Huelague]

What does he mean by that, any ideas?

In this article or in general? And what are those?

The canopy is indeed a "problem" on stealthiness. Said by T. Kotil also.

 

[Pilatino]

The canopy is indeed a "problem" on stealthiness. Said by T. Kotil also.

Someone said the color doesn't matter etc. About the canopy when I said the same. Ofc it matters the color is different in the American fighters due to the materials in it as you know and obviously we haven't produced something similar yet, unfortunately. However, I'm sure it won't be like that at the end...

 

[uçuyorum]

I don't see how the shape of Kaans canopy is radically different or worse than F35 or F22 for stealth, but maybe someone else knows?

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Another sh*t article by The National Interest

TAI TF Kaan: Turkey's New Stealth Fighter Could Become a Big Failure

Turkey's TAI TF Kaan, a 5th-generation fighter jet prototype, completed its maiden flight, marking a milestone for the Turkish defense industry. Despite this achievement, the TF Kaan program faces significant challenges, and operational capability remains years away.

nationalinterest.org

Look at the author's name

 

[Nilgiri]

What does he mean by that, any ideas?

If the canopy juts up above the planform/mantle of the aircraft, then the top down and side RCS is affected somewhat by the smoothing (the spine basically that is behind the canopy).

The canopy glass etc itself is no problem to RCS, its a bad radar reflector.

TF-X is a big aircraft already and way I see it, they've done the best they could given the needs/sizes of the radar, cockpit and rest of sensor systems in the front section. No point making the aircraft even bigger.....so there is tradeoff in the spine,

i.e where it says "KAAN" :

Compared with earlier concept mockup there has been design pushes for whats needed in cockpit and front section:

i.e its very easy to do in mockup, but real world design....aerodynamic engineers vs RCS engineers vs avionics engineers vs aircraft structure engineers all have to come to compromise.

It's why extreme approach of say F-117 wasn't continued with the F-22 and F-35 for example....there was most robust compromise.

TFX looks fine to me all things considered. There may be a few iterations and tinkering to come, but the basic look of the aircraft has to be set in stone by now so deadlines and progress are met optimally this decade for next stages.

 

[Afif]

I don't see how the shape of Kaans canopy is radically different or worse than F35 or F22 for stealth, but maybe someone else knows?

Looks like a normal canopy. No Indium Zinc Oxide (ITO) coating like F-22 and or Aluminum Doped Zinc (AZO), supposedly used in F-35's canopy.

 

[Nilgiri]

Looks like a normal canopy. No Indium Zinc Oxide (ITO) coating like F-22 and or Aluminum Doped Zinc (AZO), supposedly used in F-35's canopy.

Relative finishing touches for later.

 

[Nilgiri]

Another sh*t article by The National Interest

TAI TF Kaan: Turkey's New Stealth Fighter Could Become a Big Failure

Turkey's TAI TF Kaan, a 5th-generation fighter jet prototype, completed its maiden flight, marking a milestone for the Turkish defense industry. Despite this achievement, the TF Kaan program faces significant challenges, and operational capability remains years away.

nationalinterest.org

Look at the author's name

Bro who cares, haters gonna hate.

India gets lot of hate from milestones too, it is what it is.

Just get stuff done and prove the haters wrong. Simple.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

View attachment 65865

Looks like a normal canopy. No Indium Zinc Oxide (ITO) coating like F-22 and or Aluminum Doped Zinc (AZO), supposedly used in F-35's canopy.

I don't see how the shape of Kaans canopy is radically different or worse than F35 or F22 for stealth, but maybe someone else knows?

I was on break at work and decided to quickly paint over some parts including the canopy... Thinking of doing it properly on my PC when I get home...

 

[Boz]

View attachment 65866

I was on break at work and decided to quickly paint over some parts including the canopy... Thinking of doing it properly on my PC when I get home...

 

[TR_123456]

Another sh*t article by The National Interest

TAI TF Kaan: Turkey's New Stealth Fighter Could Become a Big Failure

Turkey's TAI TF Kaan, a 5th-generation fighter jet prototype, completed its maiden flight, marking a milestone for the Turkish defense industry. Despite this achievement, the TF Kaan program faces significant challenges, and operational capability remains years away.

nationalinterest.org

Look at the author's name

Stavros Cant Jump,must be white.

 

[uçuyorum]

View attachment 65865

Looks like a normal canopy. No Indium Zinc Oxide (ITO) coating like F-22 and or Aluminum Doped Zinc (AZO), supposedly used in F-35's canopy.

Yes I knew about that part bur

Relative finishing touches for later.

So I didn't get stuck on that. I'm talking about geometry which Nilgiri explained.

Basically, the spine is a big bigger than similar aircraft?

 

[Asena_great]

Another sh*t article by The National Interest

TAI TF Kaan: Turkey's New Stealth Fighter Could Become a Big Failure

Turkey's TAI TF Kaan, a 5th-generation fighter jet prototype, completed its maiden flight, marking a milestone for the Turkish defense industry. Despite this achievement, the TF Kaan program faces significant challenges, and operational capability remains years away.

nationalinterest.org

Look at the author's name

well i guess this will answer all of the question eh ??

 

[Lool]

GIANTS LEAGUE!
Turkey, Officially (Fifth-generation fighter) It became one of the 4 countries that had the 5th generation fighter aircraft. (Wikipedia)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1760886592711819648