TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[TheInsider]

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

The initial laser weapon might not be a majestic 150kW laser. It might be a more conservative one but it will be enough to fry the electronics of missiles at longer ranges(5+km) and enough to destroy at short ranges (<5 km)

20 F-35 won't change the tide of war. Block 10 will have Burfis. Even the block 10 Kaan will have 20db class stealth coating. Scaling production of artillery rounds, artillery rockets, tactical ballistic missiles, cruise/antiship missiles, kamikaze UAVs/USVs, integrated air defense and EW systems will win a possible war. I don't count tactical and MALE UAVs as we have a good production capacity.

 

[boredaf]

The initial laser weapon might not be a majestic 150kW laser. It might be a more conservative one but it will be enough to fry the electronics of missiles at longer ranges(5+km) and enough to destroy at short ranges (<5 km)

As I said, I'm not holding my breath as I don't believe it will be the way of the future, (so to say) that's my personal belief from what I've seen so far for all the reasons I mentioned.

 

[Radko]

I am still not convinced about "laser weapon" claims at all, and not just from TAI either. There are so many problems to solve about using them in the field, and even more problems with using them on a jet as a defensive weapon.

I would love to see how they are going to solve the problem of direction for one. If you watch LM's video about their laser pod for F-16, they are very careful not showing it shoot a missile targeting the F-16 itself but rather shooting one that is targeting another plane. That is because it is one directional and that makes it borderline useless unless the enemy is kind enough to shoot its missile from that particular direction. To be really effective, you need something borderline omnidirectional, otherwise you are going to have blind spots your laser won't be able to protect you.

And the problem of direction becomes even worse when you think about doing that without compromising stealth of a 5th gen plane. Take a look at the laser US installed on Stryker vehicle, it is multidirectional but it is fucking huge. Making a pod or an integrated system that is small enough to not break stealth of the jet is still something nobody has shown.

Then there is the issue of power. 100 kw laser are the size of shipping containers, 50 kw was fitted inside a Stryker, and that LM F-16 pod is less powerful than those, iirc lot less powerful than 60 kw. The less powerful your laser, the more time it needs on the target, more power it is obviously it requires a bigger power source.

And you want a really powerful laser on a jet because we have ground to air and air to air missiles that can travel up to and over Mach 4, that's almost 5000 kms per hour. If you get spotted, you won't get more than several second to destroy those missiles before you're in their kill zone.

Let's also not forget about countermeasures to any laser weaponry. Lasers work through focusing heat to destroy their target, so who wants to bet that next step in anti-air missile tech is going to be sensors that can detect an external heat source as soon as it hits the missile and greater manoeuvrability to steer clear of the laser while targeting it?

I know they are the flavour of the month and everyone wants the next big tech, but I believe laser weapons on board jet fighters will go the way of railguns on ships. Someone is going to waste billions on it then decide benefits will not be worth it.

"laser weapon" is just a fancy word for improved DIRCM

 

[Radko]

"laser weapon" is just a fancy word for improved DIRCM

also US stopped working on HEL mounted on aircraft. They simply dont work as advertised

 

[Rodeo]

Guys, please stay on topic!

 

[No Name]

Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.

The devil is in the details when it comes to 5th gen. Dozens of blaring mistakes... Sorry, once again I feel the need to rant about stealth. I started a dedicated STEALTH-RCS topic no one paid any attention at all.

STEALTH - RCS comparisons - Materials - Techniques

Stealth is too important of a subject to be discussed just under KAAN or any other forum. So I think it deserves it's very own section. One of the most simplified hopefully accurate information on STEALTH, regarding RCS comparisons. Did you guys know even the ancient stealth airplane F-117...

defencehub.live

• I really think that our outdated stealth knowhow which is just spraying some old F-16 have glass v2, v3 level paint is our weakest link in KAAN chain. I find Turkish defense sector's lackadaisical approach to stealth extremely troubling. No honey, iron ball paint and stealthy-ish shape won't make it stealthy enough.
  
  
• Even the direction of stealth coating you apply matters.
  
  
• Conductivity of the tape on the wings has to be like a gradient, has to differ in order to dissipate more and more of traveling waves as they pass each tape.
  
  
• KAANs exhaust nozzles stick out from all angles. Horizontal stabilizers don't hide anything because they are so far away. Just look at an F-22 for God's sake.

Is the F-35 stealth coating just iron ball paint absorber like on the F-117? If not, what is it? Can the way it’s made be found out by us...

Answer (1 of 6): The composition of the F-35’s stealth coating is classified, but one of the major breakthroughs with the F-35’s stealth technology has been something referred to as “fiber mat”: > Lockheed Gives a Peek at New JSF Stealth Material Concept Aviation Week - 17 May 2010 "It is cal...

www.quora.com

I noticed that about the horizontal stabilisers as well and have been wondering if the position of the stabilizers will change in future fighter airframes. We know that they are making changes to the airframe for the second prototype. Can one of the changes be the location of the horizontal stabilisers, maybe?

That said, I think it is completely unfair to say that they don't know what they are doing with the paint, especially since Aselsan has been working on it since the 90s and, if I'm remembering correctly, won some type of NATO competition over its Ram paint a couple of years ago.

 

[Rodeo]

Some of the highlights from Temel Kotil's most recent interview:

- The software packages used to develop KAAN are Abaqus, Patran, LS-DYNA, Siemens NX and Dassault PLM. The main design software used is Dassault PLM(at 22:45 in the video)

- The memory of the computer that was used to design the geometry of KAAN is over a petabyte(special attention was paid to the radar returns of the body).(26:30 in the video)

- The entire skin is composite made.

- They're making 8 prototypes of KAAN, then they will make 20 KAANs for delivery in 2028, after that they will make one more KAAN for the indigenous engines to fly in 2028.

- KAAN will have a cannon.(1:12:25)

Türkiye'nin Havacılık Vizyonu

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel KOTİL

www.youtube.com

 

[Lool]

If this is true, then does that mean that Turkey built the KAAN with its own engineers without foreign/technical support? Insane

From Temil kotil's interview
TUSAŞ General Manager Prof. Dr. Basic Cotyl:
- MMU / - KAAN -
-KAAN started in 2017-2018 in partnership with BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. -BAE Systems was going to support us with 100 engineers, but then they disappeared

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1794657896275509581

 

[Afif]

If this is true, then does that mean that Turkey built the KAAN with its own engineers without foreign/technical support? Insane

From Temil kotil's interview
TUSAŞ General Manager Prof. Dr. Basic Cotyl:
- MMU / - KAAN -
-KAAN started in 2017-2018 in partnership with BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. -BAE Systems was going to support us with 100 engineers, but then they disappeared

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1794657896275509581

Is he saying the contract with BAE wasn't realized?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

If this is true, then does that mean that Turkey built the KAAN with its own engineers without foreign/technical support? Insane

From Temil kotil's interview
TUSAŞ General Manager Prof. Dr. Basic Cotyl:
- MMU / - KAAN -
-KAAN started in 2017-2018 in partnership with BAE Systems of the United Kingdom. -BAE Systems was going to support us with 100 engineers, but then they disappeared

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1794657896275509581

Why should he lie, just to make it clear for everyone, Turkey is predominantly a Muslim country, the interpretation of religion can be moderate or strict, it doesn't matter.
Turkey has no friends and no partners apart from the Turkish and Kurdish citizens in its own country or the other Turkish peoples.
They love their country, otherwise they are surrounded and encircled by enemies, because their DNA and culture have always been such that they have to rise above themselves, as history has shown!
This in turn is a thorn in the side of other countries, including the Arabs.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Is he saying the contract with BAE wasn't realized?

Either that or they backed out in some other way. Like slow work, find excuses etc.

Just like how their embargoe aren't embargoes. Most of the time they don't say "we won't sell this or that to you", they say "you must pay 10 times the money, delivered 10 years late, for 20 years out of date tech". Just like what happened with patriots.

 

[Anmdt]

Is he saying the contract with BAE wasn't realized?

It is told elsewhere: it is materialized, but TAI didn't receive the support, know-how or expertise they have been promised (or expected) for. They rather had been assigned with engineers who are expert on the field but not specifically what TAI needed them for. On paper it worked, in practice it hasn't.

 

[boredaf]

For F-35 Wet dreamers.TFX rules!

Get a grip, it doesn't even exist yet outside of 1 prototype and that only flies because of foreign engine. Wait until we actually have production models at least before gloating ffs, there is no reason to turn to Russians or worse Iranians jerking off anything they see unveiled.

 

[hawk21]

Some of the highlights from Temel Kotil's most recent interview:

- The software packages used to develop KAAN are Abaqus, Patran, LS-DYNA, Siemens NX and Dassault PLM. The main design software used is Dassault PLM(at 22:45 in the video)

- The memory of the computer that was used to design the geometry of KAAN is over a petabyte(special attention was paid to the radar returns of the body).(26:30 in the video)

- The entire skin is composite made.

- They're making 8 prototypes of KAAN, then they will make 20 KAANs for delivery in 2028, after that they will make one more KAAN for the indigenous engines to fly in 2028.

- KAAN will have a cannon.(1:12:25)

Türkiye'nin Havacılık Vizyonu

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel KOTİL

www.youtube.com

This statement is a big mistake by Temel Kotil. Loose lips sink ships.

In this particular instance, he has told them exactly where to put in the backdoors.

 

[Heartbang]

This statement is a big mistake by Temel Kotil. Loose lips sink ships.

In this particular instance, he has told them exactly where to put in the backdoors.

Yes! Thank you!

 

[Strong AI]

This statement is a big mistake by Temel Kotil. Loose lips sink ships.

In this particular instance, he has told them exactly where to put in the backdoors.

Can you pls tell me what do you mean?
Are you referring to "the software packages"?
Those software packages are used to design the aircraft, they are not used inside the aircraft.
And those companies already know that their software packages are being used.
So where can they put "backdoors"?

 

[cr33pt3d]

those computers used in sensitive projects have no connection to the outside world. they work in closed network. most of the time depending on the sensitivity of the project those machine do not even have usb or any other external connection possibility.
they don't have wifi or Bluetooth connection and the wireless and electromagnetic spectrum is tightly monitored, to check if anything is transmitted outside. a least that how it works elsewhere , so I guess it's the same here.
so does not matter that KOTIL says that. but he should the keep it low. nobody needs to know this sh@t anyway. that's a common trend in Türkiye, people talk too much about everything. I like how the managed to close SAGE to the outside world.
just STFU and do your job. no need to show off until you want your enemies to know what capabilities you acquired, when needed.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

People don't even read/hear what exactly Mr. Kotil is talking about.... these are developer tools/software packages + design software. There was no mention of the actual operating system or flight controls, or targeting system, engine & co and any other software or applications that run in the aircraft's operating system in real time.

It's like a game developer announcing that their game XY is being developed with the Unreal Engine and being cursed for not developing on CryEngine but it has nothing to do with the game itself.

 

[Heartbang]

these are developer tools/software packages + design software.

Much worse. That means they have an innate understanding of our KAAN's design characteristics.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Much worse. That means they have an innate understanding of our KAAN's design characteristics.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but should Turkey pull the developer tools out of its ass? Do you know how long it takes to make developer tools to develop the actual software that you really want and need?
First you have to know what you need, which is the hardest part, so we have a chicken <-> egg problem.
With all due respect to my country and our armed forces, if that bothers you, then we should have developed our own development environment from the beginning, but to do that you would have to know what an aircraft needs and since we have never developed aircraft in the last 30-40, we also have no development kits that are constantly being developed.