TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Chocopie

Contributor
South Korea Correspondent
Messages
634
Reactions
35 2,277
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
South Korea
For one example we probably won’t see the Kaan using DIRCMs until the mid-2030s. Meanwhile, the KF-21 and F-35 won’t remain in their current configurations until then. That’s just one aspect, along with the very accurate comment from @Chocopie.
Fun fact: South Korea already developed & tested DIRCM in 2018. It successfully passed operational deployment tests in 2021 & installed in military helicopters and transport aircrafts.

KF-21EX variant (aka Block III) in mid-2030s will feature an improved DIRCM model besides IWB, RAM coating, conformal antennas and stealth conformal sensors.

Hanwha Systems’ DIRCM flashes a cutting-edge Quantum Cascade Laser (QCL) for countermeasure against incoming missiles:


Longer Korean version:

Sorry Moderator if my post derails the Kaan thread. Don‘t know how to properly remove it to the KF-21 thread. 😅
 
Last edited:

Spitfire9

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
537
Reactions
9 696
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Development and mass production are two very different things. We might be at later stages of development, but for mass production and spreading the costs we still need partners.
Azerbaijan is a partner. What can that country do to lower Turkiye's financial outlay on production? What components of KAAN could Azerbaijan mass produce?

Indonesia is a potential buyer of KAAN or similar, has an aerospace capability, so would have value as a partner. Pakistan is broke and looks like it will buy FC-31 from its Chinese overlords. Anyone else? Are there any Arab countries capable of mass producing components for KAAN?

Several countries have engineering companies with the expertise to mass produce parts for KAAN but would not be interested in greater investment in an aircraft not needed by their air force.
 

what

Experienced member
Moderator
Messages
2,165
Reactions
10 6,407
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Well buying a product already does spread the fixed costs of the product on more pieces.
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,930
Reactions
5 4,133
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
It took nearly 20 years for the F-35, from its first introduction to service in the USAF, to reach the operational capability that was promoted in before 2006, with Block 4 implemented today. TAI's new president speaks differently about the hyped and unrealistic claims of his predecessor. DIRCM was one blunt example. What I mean is that by the time the Kaan is predicted to reach a good level of operational capability, the F-35 and KF-21 won't be in the same place they are today.
Don’t take this number (20 years) to much seriously. It’ has more economical factors than a technological. T. Kotil said this very applicable in an interview. And gave a war time as an example, where products like this much faster developed and matured in a war time. Same goes for mass production. They can produce 2 jets in a month or 20, if necessary (war time). As a company, I would also delay the project to earn more money from the state. That’s how it goes in a free market economy.
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,930
Reactions
5 4,133
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
No Gulf states in the market for KAAN? Denied F-35, I would think they would be interested in an alternative 5G fighter.
This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.
 

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,293
Reactions
96 11,821
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.
Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.
 

Spitfire9

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
537
Reactions
9 696
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.
Interesting insights.

If the government of a Gulf country would like the air force to have a 5G fighter but US refuses to supply, what role can the consultants/arms lobbies play in blocking an alternative 5G? What grounds would they have to push against KAAN if Turkiye was prepared to supply?

I can see KAAN empowering countries hitherto weakened by the imposition US ME foreign policy on their arms procurements.
 

somegoodusername

Committed member
Messages
217
Reactions
2 362
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
4,747
Reactions
94 9,068
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
SU-57 and non existent SU-75 has no relevance for potential customers of KAAN. J20 is not for sale. J-31 and KF21 block 3 is the only realistic competition. GCAP will be 5 years behind KAAN for export. FCAS isn't gonna be there.

Other than that, countries that are most capable of operating 5th gen fighter, already has/getting F35. (I.e. 17 allies of United States)
 

No Name

Well-known member
Messages
397
Reactions
6 421
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Afghanistan
The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.
To add to Afif's points, the FCAS program is so dysfunctional that it is expected to be entirely in service in 2040. Here is a link to Airbus's website stating as such about the project.

The J-20 is not for sale; if it were, the Chinese government would have already started to offer to sell it by now.

The SU-57 has faced significant challenges, with even India declining to purchase any. The Russians are struggling to put them into mass production, and the SU-75 is not expected to fare any better. Some reports even suggest that Russia has lost the ability to produce state-of-the-art fighters.

The J-31 has too much political baggage and not enough positives to weigh the negatives. One of the major negatives is that the purchase of the J-31 will not only piss off Americans, but it also doesn't come with the same level of political connections to make up for it since the Chinese have zero alliances with foreign policy.

The KF-21 uses too many foreign components in a way that is like the TB-2 of jet fighters, and it will run into the same problem as the Gripen. To mitigate this, the Korean government has started an indigenisation program, which will take a long time to achieve. The US will only let the Koreans sell their jets in place of the F-35 once the indigenisation process is complete.

The GCAP will enter service in 2035, around the same time the Koreans develop their engine. This is also five years after KAAN, with a domestic engine, is expected to enter service.
 
Last edited:

Oublious

Experienced member
The Netherlands Correspondent
Messages
2,163
Reactions
8 4,677
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Americans will never deliver NGAD to another country, they will always ahead like they are with the F22. Allies or enemies thats geopolitics.
 

Spitfire9

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
537
Reactions
9 696
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Americans will never deliver NGAD to another country, they will always ahead like they are with the F22. Allies or enemies thats geopolitics.
Also with a large enough home market, US does not need exports for their crown jewels programmes to be viable. Unlike the British Tempest programme. KAAN was pursued with no dependence on a future partnership or export sales, I presume.
 

Oublious

Experienced member
The Netherlands Correspondent
Messages
2,163
Reactions
8 4,677
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Also with a large enough home market, US does not need exports for their crown jewels programmes to be viable. Unlike the British Tempest programme. KAAN was pursued with no dependence on a future partnership or export sales, I presume.


I doubt if they are going to sell Temptest, Japan is not accepting KSA to enter ther project :D . IF they decide to sell it, i can not imagine the price.
 

Spitfire9

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
537
Reactions
9 696
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
I doubt if they are going to sell Temptest, Japan is not accepting KSA to enter ther project :D . IF they decide to sell it, i can not imagine the price.
I should have phrased it better. The UK would not pay to develop Tempest on its own, particularly if it only guaranteed production of around 100 for itself. With UK, Japan and Italy ordering, development cost should be shared over 250+ frames ordered by the partners. If the Arabian states were to buy 50-100 later, that would be very helpful to making the project more viable. As you suggest, each frame is likely to be extremely costly.
 
Last edited:

2033

Active member
Messages
80
Reactions
2 183
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Kaan needs at least 10 years to be exported. We can't even sell it to Azerbaijan with the f110 engine.
 

Spitfire9

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
537
Reactions
9 696
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Kaan needs at least 10 years to be exported. We can't even sell it to Azerbaijan with the f110 engine.
Can Dr Kotil's schedule for the TF35K engine be dismissed as wishful thinking? A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028.

With valid prototypes possibly starting to test fly in 2025 (frame 0 was just an exercise in nationalistic bluster IMO), when could testing of the airframe and systems be completed? I imagine that there will be systems not yet fully developed when flight testing starts.

I have no actual knowledge of progress made but I wonder when fully functioning IOC F110 production aircraft will start being delivered. 2030 would be an achievement in my book.

Initial production will all be absorbed by the Turkish air force so I don't see that it matters much if an exportable KAAN is not available for another 10 years.

Any news on the TF10K engine?
 

No Name

Well-known member
Messages
397
Reactions
6 421
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Afghanistan
Can Dr Kotil's schedule for the TF35K engine be dismissed as wishful thinking? A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028.

With valid prototypes possibly starting to test fly in 2025 (frame 0 was just an exercise in nationalistic bluster IMO), when could testing of the airframe and systems be completed? I imagine that there will be systems not yet fully developed when flight testing starts.

I have no actual knowledge of progress made but I wonder when fully functioning IOC F110 production aircraft will start being delivered. 2030 would be an achievement in my book.

Initial production will all be absorbed by the Turkish air force so I don't see that it matters much if an exportable KAAN is unavailable for another 10 years.

Any news on the TF10K engine?
All we know is that 54 successful tests were committed with the TF-6000 and that work is continuing on the TF10 Turkiye today has an artical on Turkey's engine development if you want a quick run down.
 

Follow us on social media

Latest posts

Top Bottom