TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[what]

Well buying a product already does spread the fixed costs of the product on more pieces.

 

[Huelague]

It took nearly 20 years for the F-35, from its first introduction to service in the USAF, to reach the operational capability that was promoted in before 2006, with Block 4 implemented today. TAI's new president speaks differently about the hyped and unrealistic claims of his predecessor. DIRCM was one blunt example. What I mean is that by the time the Kaan is predicted to reach a good level of operational capability, the F-35 and KF-21 won't be in the same place they are today.

Don’t take this number (20 years) to much seriously. It’ has more economical factors than a technological. T. Kotil said this very applicable in an interview. And gave a war time as an example, where products like this much faster developed and matured in a war time. Same goes for mass production. They can produce 2 jets in a month or 20, if necessary (war time). As a company, I would also delay the project to earn more money from the state. That’s how it goes in a free market economy.

 

[Huelague]

Indonesia is a potential buyer

Malaysia, maybe Egypt, Algeria or Nigeria in the future…

 

[Spitfire9]

Malaysia, maybe Egypt, Algeria or Nigeria in the future…

No Gulf states in the market for KAAN? Denied F-35, I would think they would be interested in an alternative 5G fighter.

 

[Huelague]

No Gulf states in the market for KAAN? Denied F-35, I would think they would be interested in an alternative 5G fighter.

This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.

 

[dBSPL]

This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.

Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.

 

[Spitfire9]

Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.

Interesting insights.

If the government of a Gulf country would like the air force to have a 5G fighter but US refuses to supply, what role can the consultants/arms lobbies play in blocking an alternative 5G? What grounds would they have to push against KAAN if Turkiye was prepared to supply?

I can see KAAN empowering countries hitherto weakened by the imposition US ME foreign policy on their arms procurements.

 

[somegoodusername]

The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.

 

[Afif]

SU-57 and non existent SU-75 has no relevance for potential customers of KAAN. J20 is not for sale. J-31 and KF21 block 3 is the only realistic competition. GCAP will be 5 years behind KAAN for export. FCAS isn't gonna be there.

Other than that, countries that are most capable of operating 5th gen fighter, already has/getting F35. (I.e. 17 allies of United States)

 

[No Name]

The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.

To add to Afif's points, the FCAS program is so dysfunctional that it is expected to be entirely in service in 2040. Here is a link to Airbus's website stating as such about the project.

The J-20 is not for sale; if it were, the Chinese government would have already started to offer to sell it by now.

The SU-57 has faced significant challenges, with even India declining to purchase any. The Russians are struggling to put them into mass production, and the SU-75 is not expected to fare any better. Some reports even suggest that Russia has lost the ability to produce state-of-the-art fighters.

The J-31 has too much political baggage and not enough positives to weigh the negatives. One of the major negatives is that the purchase of the J-31 will not only piss off Americans, but it also doesn't come with the same level of political connections to make up for it since the Chinese have zero alliances with foreign policy.

The KF-21 uses too many foreign components in a way that is like the TB-2 of jet fighters, and it will run into the same problem as the Gripen. To mitigate this, the Korean government has started an indigenisation program, which will take a long time to achieve. The US will only let the Koreans sell their jets in place of the F-35 once the indigenisation process is complete.

The GCAP will enter service in 2035, around the same time the Koreans develop their engine. This is also five years after KAAN, with a domestic engine, is expected to enter service.

 

[Oublious]

Americans will never deliver NGAD to another country, they will always ahead like they are with the F22. Allies or enemies thats geopolitics.

 

[Spitfire9]

Americans will never deliver NGAD to another country, they will always ahead like they are with the F22. Allies or enemies thats geopolitics.

Also with a large enough home market, US does not need exports for their crown jewels programmes to be viable. Unlike the British Tempest programme. KAAN was pursued with no dependence on a future partnership or export sales, I presume.

 

[Oublious]

Also with a large enough home market, US does not need exports for their crown jewels programmes to be viable. Unlike the British Tempest programme. KAAN was pursued with no dependence on a future partnership or export sales, I presume.

I doubt if they are going to sell Temptest, Japan is not accepting KSA to enter ther project . IF they decide to sell it, i can not imagine the price.

 

[Spitfire9]

I doubt if they are going to sell Temptest, Japan is not accepting KSA to enter ther project . IF they decide to sell it, i can not imagine the price.

I should have phrased it better. The UK would not pay to develop Tempest on its own, particularly if it only guaranteed production of around 100 for itself. With UK, Japan and Italy ordering, development cost should be shared over 250+ frames ordered by the partners. If the Arabian states were to buy 50-100 later, that would be very helpful to making the project more viable. As you suggest, each frame is likely to be extremely costly.

 

[2033]

Kaan needs at least 10 years to be exported. We can't even sell it to Azerbaijan with the f110 engine.

 

[Spitfire9]

Kaan needs at least 10 years to be exported. We can't even sell it to Azerbaijan with the f110 engine.

Can Dr Kotil's schedule for the TF35K engine be dismissed as wishful thinking? A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028.

With valid prototypes possibly starting to test fly in 2025 (frame 0 was just an exercise in nationalistic bluster IMO), when could testing of the airframe and systems be completed? I imagine that there will be systems not yet fully developed when flight testing starts.

I have no actual knowledge of progress made but I wonder when fully functioning IOC F110 production aircraft will start being delivered. 2030 would be an achievement in my book.

Initial production will all be absorbed by the Turkish air force so I don't see that it matters much if an exportable KAAN is not available for another 10 years.

Any news on the TF10K engine?

 

[No Name]

Can Dr Kotil's schedule for the TF35K engine be dismissed as wishful thinking? A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028.

With valid prototypes possibly starting to test fly in 2025 (frame 0 was just an exercise in nationalistic bluster IMO), when could testing of the airframe and systems be completed? I imagine that there will be systems not yet fully developed when flight testing starts.

I have no actual knowledge of progress made but I wonder when fully functioning IOC F110 production aircraft will start being delivered. 2030 would be an achievement in my book.

Initial production will all be absorbed by the Turkish air force so I don't see that it matters much if an exportable KAAN is unavailable for another 10 years.

Any news on the TF10K engine?

All we know is that 54 successful tests were committed with the TF-6000 and that work is continuing on the TF10 Turkiye today has an artical on Turkey's engine development if you want a quick run down.

 

[Strong AI]

A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028

AFAIK installed for testing in 2028/2029 (mixed-engine test), not in service.
There are examples like Dassault Mirage F1 and F-15E Strike Eagle, where this also happened in the past.

 

[Spitfire9]

AFAIK installed for testing in 2028/2029 (mixed-engine test), not in service.
There are examples like Dassault Mirage F1 and F-15E Strike Eagle, where this also happened in the past.

Sure, 1 x TF35K could be installed in KAAN with 1 x F110.

I don't know a thing about testing. How useful would it be if the thrust asked of the still-in-development TF35K had to be greatly limited in flight testing for safety reasons? Perhaps I have not understood and the aircraft concerned would only be performing ground runs in 2028/2029, allowing greater thrust to be used.

 

[TheInsider]

Can Dr Kotil's schedule for the TF35K engine be dismissed as wishful thinking? A few months ago he claimed it would be installed in KAAN in 2028.

With valid prototypes possibly starting to test fly in 2025 (frame 0 was just an exercise in nationalistic bluster IMO), when could testing of the airframe and systems be completed? I imagine that there will be systems not yet fully developed when flight testing starts.

I have no actual knowledge of progress made but I wonder when fully functioning IOC F110 production aircraft will start being delivered. 2030 would be an achievement in my book.

Initial production will all be absorbed by the Turkish air force so I don't see that it matters much if an exportable KAAN is not available for another 10 years.

Any news on the TF10K engine?

The plan is to deliver the first engine to TAI in 2028/2029 to be integrated into the KAAN. Integration and flight tests will probably take at least 2-3 years so the first KAAN with the national engine can be delivered in 2032 if everything goes smoothly. First mechanical integration/fitting tests will be done, after that ground testing activity will continue with ground/taxi runs. Finally, it will fly and will be tested at different altitudes/thrust levels/mach numbers. Prototype KAAN will have 1xF110 and 1xTF-35K. Later another prototype will have 2xTF-35K after the engine passes enough tests.