TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[TheInsider]

All EO systems will be present on the first aircraft delivered. Apart from the national turbofan, all stats are inline with what the first Blok 10s will have

True. Block 10 will include all of those listed above plus 20 dB class stealth coating, basic MUM-T capability, and sensor fusion.
Planned improvements for later blocks are national turbofan, 25 dB class stealth coating, advanced MUM-T capability, advanced sensor fusion, and high-powered laser.

 

[somegoodusername]

I don't like this guy's aggressive mentality when discussing these issues. He’s always in a fight on Twitter, arguing with everyone and trying to prove the supremacy of his identity by comparing cherry-picked stats.

For one example we probably won’t see the Kaan using DIRCMs until the mid-2030s. Meanwhile, the KF-21 and F-35 won’t remain in their current configurations until then. That’s just one aspect, along with the very accurate comment from @Chocopie.

This TR Tech guy is bad. Sometimes he even openly lies. Not credible enough for this forum.

Yıldırım-100 DIRCM already attended a NATO exercise. Yıldırım 300 is an improved version of it.

It took nearly 20 years for the F-35, from its first introduction to service in the USAF, to reach the operational capability that was promoted in before 2006, with Block 4 implemented today. TAI's new president speaks differently about the hyped and unrealistic claims of his predecessor. DIRCM was one blunt example. What I mean is that by the time the Kaan is predicted to reach a good level of operational capability, the F-35 and KF-21 won't be in the same place they are today.

 

[TheInsider]

It took nearly 20 years for the F-35, from its first introduction to service in the USAF, to reach the operational capability that was promoted in before 2006, with Block 4 implemented today. TAI's new president speaks differently about the hyped and unrealistic claims of his predecessor. DIRCM was one blunt example. What I mean is that by the time the Kaan is predicted to reach a good level of operational capability, the F-35 and KF-21 won't be in the same place they are today.

Technology in the late 90s and early 2000s are inherently different compared to today's technology. Newcomers don't need 2,5 decades to develop and mature a 5th gen fighter.

 

[Chocopie]

For one example we probably won’t see the Kaan using DIRCMs until the mid-2030s. Meanwhile, the KF-21 and F-35 won’t remain in their current configurations until then. That’s just one aspect, along with the very accurate comment from @Chocopie.

Fun fact: South Korea already developed & tested DIRCM in 2018. It successfully passed operational deployment tests in 2021 & installed in military helicopters and transport aircrafts.

KF-21EX variant (aka Block III) in mid-2030s will feature an improved DIRCM model besides IWB, RAM coating, conformal antennas and stealth conformal sensors.

Hanwha Systems’ DIRCM flashes a cutting-edge Quantum Cascade Laser (QCL) for countermeasure against incoming missiles:

Longer Korean version:

Sorry Moderator if my post derails the Kaan thread. Don‘t know how to properly remove it to the KF-21 thread.

 

[Spitfire9]

Development and mass production are two very different things. We might be at later stages of development, but for mass production and spreading the costs we still need partners.

Azerbaijan is a partner. What can that country do to lower Turkiye's financial outlay on production? What components of KAAN could Azerbaijan mass produce?

Indonesia is a potential buyer of KAAN or similar, has an aerospace capability, so would have value as a partner. Pakistan is broke and looks like it will buy FC-31 from its Chinese overlords. Anyone else? Are there any Arab countries capable of mass producing components for KAAN?

Several countries have engineering companies with the expertise to mass produce parts for KAAN but would not be interested in greater investment in an aircraft not needed by their air force.

 

[what]

Well buying a product already does spread the fixed costs of the product on more pieces.

 

[Huelague]

It took nearly 20 years for the F-35, from its first introduction to service in the USAF, to reach the operational capability that was promoted in before 2006, with Block 4 implemented today. TAI's new president speaks differently about the hyped and unrealistic claims of his predecessor. DIRCM was one blunt example. What I mean is that by the time the Kaan is predicted to reach a good level of operational capability, the F-35 and KF-21 won't be in the same place they are today.

Don’t take this number (20 years) to much seriously. It’ has more economical factors than a technological. T. Kotil said this very applicable in an interview. And gave a war time as an example, where products like this much faster developed and matured in a war time. Same goes for mass production. They can produce 2 jets in a month or 20, if necessary (war time). As a company, I would also delay the project to earn more money from the state. That’s how it goes in a free market economy.

 

[Huelague]

Indonesia is a potential buyer

Malaysia, maybe Egypt, Algeria or Nigeria in the future…

 

[Spitfire9]

Malaysia, maybe Egypt, Algeria or Nigeria in the future…

No Gulf states in the market for KAAN? Denied F-35, I would think they would be interested in an alternative 5G fighter.

 

[Huelague]

No Gulf states in the market for KAAN? Denied F-35, I would think they would be interested in an alternative 5G fighter.

This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.

 

[dBSPL]

This could also happen. Arabs doesnt care price. Just quality. For Arabs, a 'special' configuration is needed.

Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.

 

[Spitfire9]

Unfortunately, the cadres providing consultancy services to the relevant armed forces are extensions of certain arms lobbies. Traditionally, the diplomatic support of western states is valued in royal palaces, and major military contracts are to some extent important for strengthening this support. In recent history, many astronomical contracts have been not so much for strategic military competence as for complete packages of services including all the life-cycle logistics of the systems and the monetary equivalent of political support of the countries concerned on specific issues. Recently, there are signs that this is changing, at least for a few countries, due to the influence of world politics, and there are efforts to develop at least some capabilities domestically, but I am not sure if this is enough to create a truly defense policy independent Arab country in the future. In this regard, KAAN could provide an alternative way out of the bind that some Arab countries are in.

Interesting insights.

If the government of a Gulf country would like the air force to have a 5G fighter but US refuses to supply, what role can the consultants/arms lobbies play in blocking an alternative 5G? What grounds would they have to push against KAAN if Turkiye was prepared to supply?

I can see KAAN empowering countries hitherto weakened by the imposition US ME foreign policy on their arms procurements.

 

[somegoodusername]

The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.

 

[Afif]

SU-57 and non existent SU-75 has no relevance for potential customers of KAAN. J20 is not for sale. J-31 and KF21 block 3 is the only realistic competition. GCAP will be 5 years behind KAAN for export. FCAS isn't gonna be there.

Other than that, countries that are most capable of operating 5th gen fighter, already has/getting F35. (I.e. 17 allies of United States)

 

[No Name]

The Gulf market and international market aren't awaiting for the Kaan, checking their watches every five seconds. The Kaan will have to compete with FCAS, GCAP, KF-21 EX, J-31, maybe J-20, and SU-57 or SU-75 for deals. It's possible that the majority of Kaans in service will be with the Turkish Air Force, rather than abroad. Kaan won't have the lower price advantage that many of our other defense exports have.

To add to Afif's points, the FCAS program is so dysfunctional that it is expected to be entirely in service in 2040. Here is a link to Airbus's website stating as such about the project.

The J-20 is not for sale; if it were, the Chinese government would have already started to offer to sell it by now.

The SU-57 has faced significant challenges, with even India declining to purchase any. The Russians are struggling to put them into mass production, and the SU-75 is not expected to fare any better. Some reports even suggest that Russia has lost the ability to produce state-of-the-art fighters.

The J-31 has too much political baggage and not enough positives to weigh the negatives. One of the major negatives is that the purchase of the J-31 will not only piss off Americans, but it also doesn't come with the same level of political connections to make up for it since the Chinese have zero alliances with foreign policy.

The KF-21 uses too many foreign components in a way that is like the TB-2 of jet fighters, and it will run into the same problem as the Gripen. To mitigate this, the Korean government has started an indigenisation program, which will take a long time to achieve. The US will only let the Koreans sell their jets in place of the F-35 once the indigenisation process is complete.

The GCAP will enter service in 2035, around the same time the Koreans develop their engine. This is also five years after KAAN, with a domestic engine, is expected to enter service.