India AMCA Program

[Bhartiya Sainik]

The watermark removes itself once the pic is hosted in-line with the post itself. See for yourself:

https://defencehub.live/attachments/1723049057708-jpeg.69992/

etc.

It (watermark during attachment process) is artifact from earlier issue on forum.

Ok, let's see.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Before we talk further on shape, structure, RCS, etc of AMCA further, let's have a look of 3D CAD designs made by 5 people i have spotted so far :
1- Murli Yadav (social media ID not available)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/jon-arts.18541/)
2- Ankur Singh Chauhan (x.com/Anx450z)
(DFI - defenceforumindia.com/members/wahmanrespector.37183/)
3- Kuntal Biswas (x.com/Kuntal__biswas)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/16257/)
4- Satwik Sadhukhan (x.com/i_m_satwikk)
5- Harshal Pal (x.com/HarshalPal5)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/31984/)

If anyone of you know them & other artists including international ones, please invite them here.

I will post only selected pics, rest can be checked on their Twitter, DFI, etc posts. Some are also present on 3D sites like Turbosquid, Artstation, Sketchfab, Behance, etc.
===========================================================
Murli Yadav

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satwik Sadhukhan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harshal Pal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ankur Singh Chauhan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kuntal Biswas

Older design

Revised design

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

SHAPE OF AIRCRAFT, CHANGE IN ORIENTATION, AREAS OF APPLICATION OF RAM

In war time, Fighter jets might plan a sortie waypoints as per fixed assets like airbases, SAMs, terrain, etc. So the jet can maintain flight at certain altitude & heading to have minimum RCS towards certain areas.

But the dynamic assets like moving ground SAMs, AWACS, enemy fighter jets can force to tactically alter the plan, waypoints & maneuver in roll, pitch, yaw axis which increases RCS towards certain angles.

The 5gen jets still use rudders but canted at angle matching the fuselage side wall. from the diagrams above, on rolling & banking, the surface area at that angle increases a lot for few seconds. The entire body is reflecting some RF energy.
This may compel to apply RAM on entire ventral/bottom side.

Earlier in capitalist country like USA, private companies developed their version of RAS & RAM whose quality would differ & cost of application & maintenance would be very high. Special machines would be needed to wrap the jet with RAM tapes, attach RAm panels, or paint the RAM.
Today multiple nations have developed their own RAS, RAM with easier application & reduced cost.

But bcoz of nature of RF radiation is not simple, & ultimately a fighter jet has to do so much maneuvering, sometimes to evade enemy jets & missiles, that RAM may have to be applied almost everywhere. So people usually prioritise only front RCS but side, top, back RCS now would become equal priority.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

One question what do you do if you receive sanctions or embargoes on certain parts in the aircraft that come from abroad, e.g. for strategic political reasons?
The Tejas is full of foreign parts as you know, what about AMCA Project?
The engine cannot be Indian for the next few years.
The development of a Generation 4+ or 5 engine alone costs at least 10-15 in total years, depending on the complexity of the engine.
In addition, there is the blisk technology in the engine, which consists of various alloys, composite materials and crystals in one piece, which have to withstand very high temperatures and pressures - nobody simply gives this away as a technology transfer.

What about the supply chains of the parts alone that would have to be produced domestically, just getting these defense companies off the ground and developing all the parts costs a lot of money and time.

I say that because Turkey has been under sanctions for several years and has built up its own arms industry. They are now at 85-90% to produce everything themselves.
The last 10% are the worst, because it's about absolute high technology, such as semiconductors, engines, composite materials, stealth alloys with coatings that enhance the effect even more.
We were able to solve the latter problems because we were co-developers in the Joint Strike Fighter program for decades, which is now known as the F-35.
The only problem Turkey still has is semiconductor chips, but nobody can solve that so quickly, not even top European industrialized countries.

How will India solve this?
Consider that it took us several years to develop a high-performance Engine like the TF-6000 for drones and helicopters.
The next step is to equip the TEI TF-6000 with an afterburner as the TEI TF-10000.
The TF-35000 for TAI KAAN has been in development for 2-3 years and it will take another 6-8 years before a prototype is ready.

 

[Jammer]

One question what do you do if you receive sanctions or embargoes on certain parts in the aircraft that come from abroad, e.g. for strategic political reasons?
The Tejas is full of foreign parts as you know, what about AMCA Project?
The engine cannot be Indian for the next few years.
The development of a Generation 4+ or 5 engine alone costs at least 10-15 in total years, depending on the complexity of the engine.
In addition, there is the blisk technology in the engine, which consists of various alloys, composite materials and crystals in one piece, which have to withstand very high temperatures and pressures - nobody simply gives this away as a technology transfer.

What about the supply chains of the parts alone that would have to be produced domestically, just getting these defense companies off the ground and developing all the parts costs a lot of money and time.

I say that because Turkey has been under sanctions for several years and has built up its own arms industry. They are now at 85-90% to produce everything themselves.
The last 10% are the worst, because it's about absolute high technology, such as semiconductors, engines, composite materials, stealth alloys with coatings that enhance the effect even more.
We were able to solve the latter problems because we were co-developers in the Joint Strike Fighter program for decades, which is now known as the F-35.
The only problem Turkey still has is semiconductor chips, but nobody can solve that so quickly, not even top European industrialized countries.

How will India solve this?
Consider that it took us several years to develop a high-performance Engine like the TF-6000 for drones and helicopters.
The next step is to equip the TEI TF-6000 with an afterburner as the TEI TF-10000.
The TF-35000 for TAI KAAN has been in development for 2-3 years and it will take another 6-8 years before a prototype is ready.

Simple they aint not gonna sanctions us thats it. Nobody is gonna be 100% sanction proof in an era of global supply chains.

 

[kakaliam2]

One question what do you do if you receive sanctions or embargoes on certain parts in the aircraft that come from abroad, e.g. for strategic political reasons?
The Tejas is full of foreign parts as you know, what about AMCA Project?
The engine cannot be Indian for the next few years.
The development of a Generation 4+ or 5 engine alone costs at least 10-15 in total years, depending on the complexity of the engine.
In addition, there is the blisk technology in the engine, which consists of various alloys, composite materials and crystals in one piece, which have to withstand very high temperatures and pressures - nobody simply gives this away as a technology transfer.

What about the supply chains of the parts alone that would have to be produced domestically, just getting these defense companies off the ground and developing all the parts costs a lot of money and time.

I say that because Turkey has been under sanctions for several years and has built up its own arms industry. They are now at 85-90% to produce everything themselves.
The last 10% are the worst, because it's about absolute high technology, such as semiconductors, engines, composite materials, stealth alloys with coatings that enhance the effect even more.
We were able to solve the latter problems because we were co-developers in the Joint Strike Fighter program for decades, which is now known as the F-35.
The only problem Turkey still has is semiconductor chips, but nobody can solve that so quickly, not even top European industrialized countries.

How will India solve this?
Consider that it took us several years to develop a high-performance Engine like the TF-6000 for drones and helicopters.
The next step is to equip the TEI TF-6000 with an afterburner as the TEI TF-10000.
The TF-35000 for TAI KAAN has been in development for 2-3 years and it will take another 6-8 years before a prototype is ready.

Well In short, India's quest into Aero Engines and Aircraft Industry had always taken a backseat. . Earlier before, the momentum was weak, the government didn't prioritize because we could always import them. Funds allocated to this sector are scarce along with Human Resources. It is only recently we started investing heavily in this sector and it takes time to mature Aero Engines and Aircraft Industry. We can't expect fruits to yield when we started taking this sector seriously for the past 5-10 years only.

Ignore the long paragraph if not interested of Why India is weak in Aircraft Industry.

The circumstances that led to India’s relative weakness in the aircraft industry are deeply rooted in the nation's history and strategic choices post-independence. Unlike some other nations, India emerged from colonial rule with limited resources and a massive population that required immediate attention to basic needs. Unlike China, where a Maoist revolution enabled a brutal but effective focus on industrialization, India chose the path of democracy which means we have to feed every "Mag*ot" otherwise he/she would resort to protests, also meant that resources were spread thin, and priorities had to be carefully chosen.

India’s human resources were always limited in quantity but exceptional in quality. With a tight budget, the country had to make hard decisions about where to invest its R&D efforts. The strategic focus naturally fell on two critical areas: the nuclear industry and the space industry. This wasn’t just a choice but a necessity for survival. Nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them through ICBMs are the ultimate guarantors of national sovereignty. Without them, the very existence of the nation would be at risk. The fruits of this strategy, despite decades of struggle and sanctions, are clear today.

For example, India has achieved the following:

1. ICBM for Nuclear Deterrence: Capable of reaching the farthest parts of China.
2. Miniaturized Nuclear Warheads: Developed in the form of MIRVs on the Agni-5 missile.
3. Indigenous SSBN: Equipped with a home-grown reactor.
4. Medium Category Space Launch Vehicle: Sufficient to meet all national needs.
5. Satellites: Supported by vertical integration, including semiconductor chips designed and manufactured in India.
6. BMD& ASAT
7. Matured Indigenous Gen 3+ Nuclear Reactors: Developed for power generation, alongside a Fast Breeder Reactor and the KAMINI Thorium Reactor, the only one of its kind in the world.
8. Supercomputers (We were denied. We built one. It came only second to Cray Supercomputer in 1990 Munich Conference)

Some of the above were denied or outright blocked by foreign nations. No one gonna hand over the above to us. We had to make them and we succeeded.

Given the limited resources we had, I believe our political leaders made the right choices. We can always buy fighter jets, but no one is going to hand over the kind of strategic capabilities that we’ve developed in-house. That’s why the aircraft industry, while important, wasn’t the top priority. The focus was on capabilities that are non-negotiable for a sovereign nation.

When it comes to semiconductors, the situation is very optimistic. India does not lack in design capability—far from it. Every major semiconductor player has a presence in India, and over 20% of the global semiconductor design talent resides here with GCCs of Major Semiconductor Companies. We do have a vertically integrated ecosystem for semiconductors, albeit small and primarily catering to defense needs. The SCL-Mohali lab has been designing and manufacturing chips for defense and space applications for years. With Tata's upcoming 28nm fab, we’re on track to meet the majority of our military requirements for the foreseeable future. Ofcourse, we will always be on the risk of USA doing its shenanigans with EUV Machines, but the scenario is very low with current geopolitical situation.

For India, Self reliant in Pharma sector is as important as Military sector. India is largely self-reliant in vaccines and medicines, with only a few exceptions where the cost of R&D makes importing a better option. Imagine the Covid-19 pandemic without any domestic pharma sector, it would have been hell in India. Western Powers would armtwist India into a puppet and it would have no choice but to bend with a foreseen domestic pressure.

In the broader Civilian-Strategic-Military Industrial Complex, cracking Jet engine technology is the last major hurdle for India. We’ve come a long way despite our early challenges and limited resources. Our focus has always been on long-term, strategic capabilities that ensure our sovereignty and independence. The aircraft industry may have taken a back seat, but that’s only because we’ve been busy securing our future on more critical fronts.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Will AMCA have Towed Decoy?

 

[TR_123456]

One question what do you do if you receive sanctions or embargoes on certain parts in the aircraft that come from abroad, e.g. for strategic political reasons?
The Tejas is full of foreign parts as you know, what about AMCA Project?
The engine cannot be Indian for the next few years.
The development of a Generation 4+ or 5 engine alone costs at least 10-15 in total years, depending on the complexity of the engine.
In addition, there is the blisk technology in the engine, which consists of various alloys, composite materials and crystals in one piece, which have to withstand very high temperatures and pressures - nobody simply gives this away as a technology transfer.

What about the supply chains of the parts alone that would have to be produced domestically, just getting these defense companies off the ground and developing all the parts costs a lot of money and time.

I say that because Turkey has been under sanctions for several years and has built up its own arms industry. They are now at 85-90% to produce everything themselves.
The last 10% are the worst, because it's about absolute high technology, such as semiconductors, engines, composite materials, stealth alloys with coatings that enhance the effect even more.
We were able to solve the latter problems because we were co-developers in the Joint Strike Fighter program for decades, which is now known as the F-35.
The only problem Turkey still has is semiconductor chips, but nobody can solve that so quickly, not even top European industrialized countries.

How will India solve this?
Consider that it took us several years to develop a high-performance Engine like the TF-6000 for drones and helicopters.
The next step is to equip the TEI TF-6000 with an afterburner as the TEI TF-10000.
The TF-35000 for TAI KAAN has been in development for 2-3 years and it will take another 6-8 years before a prototype is ready.

Not comparable,India is in a different position.
Why would they sanction India?
Not only the US but also France and the UK would be happy to provide India with all kinds of engines and equipments.
You need to SEE the difference in position of both countries before asking all these questions.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Do you have proof of such bribery and corruption? If not you had better retract your claims asap. If you do; then share it here to prove.

 

[Lool]

Do you have proof of such bribery and corruption? If not you had better retract your claims asap. If you do; then share it here to prove.

Sadly, I couldnt find the source so I deleted my post but I could have sworn that I read an article about this issue around 2 months ago but didnt give it too much consideration to remember the site's name

My mistake

 

[Jammer]

Sadly, I couldnt find the source so I deleted my post but I could have sworn that I read an article about this issue around 2 months ago but didnt give it too much consideration to remember the site's name

My mistake

Better deleting it .Seriously people think that all defence deals are clean and also when that its a competition. Sorry to inform you but thats not how these work middle men, lobbying all is part of the game.luckily though india aint the banana republic where military is the last word. If a deal is shady then it will go through the judicial system.The faltering "aero industry" that you mention has an order book of atleast 200 fighter,150 attack chopper orders along with more than 300 helicopter orders and this is just the public sector and that too only for projects which are finished. All this even when we spend far far less on our projects and are generally lethargic when it comes to indigenous projects.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Better deleting it .Seriously people think that all defence deals are clean and also when that its a competition. Sorry to inform you but thats not how these work middle men, lobbying all is part of the game.luckily though india aint the banana republic where military is the last word. If a deal is shady then it will go through the judicial system.The faltering "aero industry" that you mention has an order book of atleast 200 fighter,150 attack chopper orders along with more than 300 helicopter orders and this is just the public sector and that too only for projects which are finished. All this even when we spend far far less on our projects and are generally lethargic when it comes to indigenous projects.

Any large deal irrespective of the country involved, that has billions hanging at the end of it, is susceptible to being part of a bribery scandal or some form of corruption.
We probably suspect these things and may have heard or read about it. But this is not the platform to accuse any country or its officials of corruption, unless there are concrete sources that say it is the case.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

A collage of diagrams of EW antennas, GPS, SATCOM, Radar altimeter, TACAN, RWR, IFF, VHF/UHF, L-band, data link (IFDL/MADL).

The diagrams say "preliminary" so final positions may change.

The following is collage of F-22's & F-35's sensors & antennas:

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

AMCA Vs TFX Kaan Vs KF-21, top view, side view, front view, isometric/corner view, as per present state of designs.
Good AMCA diagrams are not yet available, even by CAD artists.
Turkey was given F110-GE-129 engine. India was offered F-16IN with F110-GE-132A engine. We can't go for older airframe designs but if the business was done for the engine then we could have designed a jet better than AMCA.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I don't have an official refined infographic or static model yet. Possible locations & coverage sectors for DAS/MAWS:

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

SENSOR FUSION
It came with 5gen jets helping pilot to focus on 1 picture of battle space, coming from multiple sensors as part of the jet or from wingman, other friendly jets, AWACS, satellite, ground asset, etc.

RWR was a standard among 4gen jets, but with analog wide sector indicators. I guess no jet had spherical sensor coverage & narrow direction indicator of incoming missile or enemy jet locked on to us.
Thereafter moresensors were added - RF/EW/ESM/IFF, IR/MAWS, LWR.
It became important even for MLUed 4.5gen jets to have spherical coverage & some degree of sensor fusion with digital display.

Demo cockpit of AMCA has been shown at Aero-India expo. The static model has 1 wide primary MFD & 2nd MFD below it b/w legs.

The actual inducted jet will have a sensor fused view.
But this demo cockpit may not be showing it yet. In lower right coner we see RWR & stores display.
The main 4 bigger sections, from left to right -
- Digital gyroscope/attitude indicator
- Navigation display with map
- Radar/Attack display
- Multiple systems - Fuel, Hydraulics, Electrical, Nozzle position, Anti-ice, Engine RPM % bar,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another pic:

The RWR has been enlarged on the right.
Navigation display remains at 2nd from left.
Radar/Attack display has been moved below to bottom row.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Navigation & RWR displays
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2nd from left is navigation+map display.
Below it are RWR & Radar/Attack displays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFAIK the 5gen jets F-22, F-35 & others too, do not care anymore about individual displays like RWR, IRST sweeping, radar sweeps & AESA beams, passive ESM finds, etc. All those things become processing overhead for pilot & for display GPU, hence fused into 1 situation display.

As the AMCA project progresses, we hope to see better version of demo cockpits, more precise, showing sensor fused display.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It is very difficult to decipher some elements in the demo cockpit display. Those who play DCS, MSFS & other simulators might be able to guess better.

Top row:

> AP - Auto Pilot
> AHLD - Altitude Hold?
> ASEL - Altitude Select?
> FD - Flight Director?
> L | G ?
> AT - Auto Thrust?
-------------------------
> NAV - Navigation map/mode active?
> 0.35 206, 0.25 151 ?
> FUEL 2931, 2350 - remaining fuel.
> 027 degree ?
> 6090, 5080 - Altitude?
-------------------------
> SPOO1?
> RT1, RT2?
> VOR - VHF Omni-directional Range?
> TAC - Tactical air navigation?
> IFF M3 - Interogate Friend or Foe frequency select?
> M?
> DISP - Display options?
> 50X TR?
--------------------------
> 02 PKTS BULLS?
> 068 / 102 NM, 273 / X88 NM - may be navigation beacons bearing, distance.
> AMCA TAKE EASTERN PKT ??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple systems status

> 2 circles at top corners with 52, 17 - could be nozzle position open %.
> A/ICE - Engine Anti-ice heating OFF / AUTO.
> Vertical white scale & green bar, range 1-10, AB (After Burner), value 82%, 88% - Engine RPM %.
> Vertical yellow scale & greenbar, range 2-10, value 610, 671 - could be engine temperature.
> Small vertical white scale & green bar, range 0-200, FF value 31, 83 - could be Fuel Flow.
> REMN 2931 - Remaining Fuel?
> INT 2350 - Internal Fuel?
> BINGO 400 - Bingo Fuel mark.
But INT should be total & REMN should be less than that, right?
> HYD1, HYD2 280 BAR - Hydraulic pressure.
> DC 28.0 V, AC 114 V - Electricity.
> OIL 6.6, 6.9 BAR - Engine oil pressure.
> LPL, LPR ON - LP no idea, but on Left & right are ON.
> BPL, BPR - BP no idea, but on left & right.
May be LP, BP are pumps.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Navigation, Map display

> LOC - Localizer?
> DCN? - Display Contrast?
> DCL? - Display Color?
> SCL? - Symbols Color?
> DAN?
> FD?
> FPI?
> OVR? - Overlay?
> OBL?
> Lower left corner, blue color : ETA 11:30:55 - Estimated Time of Arrival at waypoint?
> Lower center, blue color : EF with some number - no idea
> Lower right corner, 096/3.42 NM, 058/2.4 NM - Waypoint bearing/distance?
> Top right corner, 6100, 4550 - Altitude?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

There is an unofficial tweet that AMCA will have 6 AAMs in IWB

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835167622419431752

He mentioned IDAX24 & ex-tarangshakti-2024. Do we have any official link confirming 6 AAMs in IWB?

Some static models, CAD, infographic showcase Astr-Mk1 AAM with large fins. Clearly this version is not fit for IWB.

With a little tight fit, 2 SAAW bombs might fit in.
If Astr-1 are staggered then IWB needs to be elongated, but then also neither # of Astr-1 AAMs nor SAAW bombs increase.
Longer the fins of a weapon, longer is the IWB extension required.
If 2 Astr-1 AAMs are removed then total 8 SAAW bombs can be fitted.
W/o any AAMs, 12 SAAW bombs can be loaded.

Similar is the case with Astr-2 AAM with short fins.

There is another CAD online showing that only 4 Astr-2 AAMs or 8 SAAW bombs can fit in.
With little tight adjustment perhaps 2 folding-fin SAAW bombs can be pushed in with 4 Astr-2 AAMs, or 6 SAAW bombs with 2 Astr-2 AAMs.
Maximum 12 SAAW bombs might fit in. Staggering the AAMs would require lengthening the IWB little but that doesn't increase capacity.
If 4 AAMs & 4 SAAW bombs are arranged then it would require to lengthen the IWB more.
But 6 AAMs doesn't seem to fit in.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

There is an unofficial tweet that AMCA will have 6 AAMs in IWB

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835167622419431752

He mentioned IDAX24 & ex-tarangshakti-2024. Do we have any official link confirming 6 AAMs in IWB?

Some static models, CAD, infographic showcase Astr-Mk1 AAM with large fins. Clearly this version is not fit for IWB.

View attachment 72543
View attachment 72544
View attachment 72545
With a little tight fit, 2 SAAW bombs might fit in.
If Astr-1 are staggered then IWB needs to be elongated, but then also neither # of Astr-1 AAMs nor SAAW bombs increase.
Longer the fins of a weapon, longer is the IWB extension required.
If 2 Astr-1 AAMs are removed then total 8 SAAW bombs can be fitted.
W/o any AAMs, 12 SAAW bombs can be loaded.

Similar is the case with Astr-2 AAM with short fins.

View attachment 72546
View attachment 72547
There is another CAD online showing that only 4 Astr-2 AAMs or 8 SAAW bombs can fit in.
With little tight adjustment perhaps 2 folding-fin SAAW bombs can be pushed in with 4 Astr-2 AAMs, or 6 SAAW bombs with 2 Astr-2 AAMs.
Maximum 12 SAAW bombs might fit in. Staggering the AAMs would require lengthening the IWB little but that doesn't increase capacity.
If 4 AAMs & 4 SAAW bombs are arranged then it would require to lengthen the IWB more.
But 6 AAMs doesn't seem to fit in.

View attachment 72548

If AMCA's IWB can be widened & Astr-2 AAMs staggered then similar to F-22, 6 Astr-2 AAMs can fit.
In A-G only mode, it may allow total 16 SAAW bombs.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

There is a perpendicular bottom view CAD available for Astr-1 in IWB of AMCA

And there is one for Meteor or Astr-3 SFDR but angled, not clear.

If someone has a perpendicular bottom view for Astr-2 or Meteor/Astr-3 SFDR then kindly share, Thanks.