TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Spitfire9]

Turkish Defence Minister Yashar Guler confirmed Pakistan's participation in the MMU (TF-X) project during the Pak-Turkish Industrial Expo international forum in January 2025.

Turkey and Pakistan to establish joint aircraft factory for production of 5th generation Turkish KAAN fighters

Turkey and Pakistan have announced the establishment of a joint aircraft factory to produce fifth-generation KAAN fighters. This was reported by Army Recognition with reference to the Turkish Minister of Defence.

gagadget.com

That is a big step, isn't it? I'm surprised there is not a bigger reaction from forum members.

Is there a low probability of Pakistan involvement resulting in some kind of concrete result?

 

[dBSPL]

We have recently provided Pakistan with a lot of strategic know-how and infrastructure consultations, we are looking for ways to work together, and it is undeniable that there has been a serious rapprochement in the military bureaucracies of both sides, not just in words but in concrete terms.

Consultation services for restructuring of the Karachi shipyard, the transfer of some know-how related the Milgem project to help them design, classify and build their own frigates, systems engineering and related works support to the Khalid (Agosta 90B) class submarines to provide them with a number of strategic capabilities, and, I think equally important, the agreement on the joint development of air-to-air missiles through the Gökdoğan infrastructure, were all important agenda items that were openly reported and not even discussed in the Turkish social media as much as they were reported in the Indian media. There are even some detailed issues, but I am not sure which is open source information and which is not, so I don't want to speculate.

In short, the opening of the KAAN program to Pakistan has been expected for years, there is nothing surprising in this. In the meantime, -isolating the issue of political instability in Pakistan-, I have the opinion that in general terms, it is extremely compatible with Turkish interests for Pakistan to have a strong military deterrent.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I am only worried about the industrial cooperation between Pakistan and China through J-17, there could be an involuntary transfer of technology from TAI KAAN through Chinese espionage.

 

[boredaf]

I am only worried about the industrial cooperation between Pakistan and China through J-17, there could be an involuntary transfer of technology from TAI KAAN through Chinese espionage.

As if they wouldn't give anything they asked for to China, while owing almost all of their debts, their military imports and increasingly more projects to them. Sentimentality only goes so far between countries, especially in modern times.

 

[Turkic]

Can't we send our own personnel to fill the important positions and keep the critical data away from chinese ?

 

[Tabmachine]

I don't expect to see laser weapons on stealth jets, at all. On top of the issue of energy generation for lasers (along with all the sensors and systems on the plane) issue of geometry and direction is the reason I expect it to go out the same way railguns have. If you watch the LM laser pod render video, they don't show it shooting missiles coming at it, they showed it shooting down missiles targeting another plane.

Stealth jets are already a compromise between performance and stealth, we all know this. The laser has to be borderline omnidirectional to be effective in the first place, as you can't ask your enemy to just fire from the directions your laser can defend you. So, you either place enough lenses to cover the jet reasonably well (and remember, you have to do this in 3 dimensions), or, you have to make something that can move and point itself towards the threat once it is detected, which would still require multiple lenses to cover the jet. And you have to do this without compromising stealth too much.

There is also the fact that a laser is an intense heat source, I'm curious whether it would make targeting a stealth jet easier with heat seeking missiles or not. And on the other side of the coin, you have how heat resistant can missiles be made without compromising them too much?

I would agree. The people who run Pakistan are self-serving to the bone. They don't even care about their fellow countrymen why would they care about Turkey?

Turkey has very legitimate interests in Pakistan, but I hope that Turkish decision makers are realistic about what Pakistan is and how they can benefit from it. It's geographical position is useful for Turkeys broader Central Asia strategy, and for other reasons, as well as the nuclear technology. There are good reasons to keep those relations going, especially as the socioeconomic developments in Pakistan continually push it towards a reformation of the system towards something more legitimate.

However, being a naive friend to a ruthless ruling-class of Pakistan, is a recipe for pain. If you want to get a feel for Pakistan read about how they treated the godfather of the nuclear program Abdul Qadeer Khan after he gifted them with the fundamental means to their survival.

 

[Oublious]

armyrecognation came first witht he news and the rest off the internet copy each other. People are writing about a news what is not being confirmed . You should ask yourself, ther is 1 prototype at the moment how the fak can Pakistan build one? Why should Pakistan give tech to China? They are making ther 6 gen fighter.

It is easy to manipulate Turkish people with internet....

 

[hugh]

armyrecognation came first witht he news and the rest off the internet copy each other. People are writing about a news what is not being confirmed . You should ask yourself, ther is 1 prototype at the moment how the fak can Pakistan build one? Why should Pakistan give tech to China? They are making ther 6 gen fighter.

It is easy to manipulate Turkish people with internet....

It's not about Pakistan's government selling out secrets, it's the corruption in the state.

And do you think we would not care to learn more about Rafale and study its weaknesses just because we're making a 5th gen aircraft?

 

[I_Love_F16]

Why should Pakistan give tech to China?

Because China would ask them. Chinese espionage, and industrial espionage in general, is a real thing. You guys are heavily underestimating that fact.

 

[TR_123456]

The "Kaan-P" fighter jet will be put into production with China's WS-10G engine

That will never happen.
None of the Chinese engines are on par with Western engines.
Not even the WS-15 engine,the chinese claim so many things about their engines but i havent seen any proof,has anyone ever?

 

[Nilgiri]

That will never happen.
None of the Chinese engines are on par with Western engines.
Not even the WS-15 engine,the chinese claim so many things about their engines but i havent seen any proof,has anyone ever?

Only way we will know if credible airforce operates chinese and western engine platforms side by side to get the MRO comparison etc...and then credibly releases information or molds future acquisition cycle from performance feedback of each etc.

But that will take a long time (and expense and logistics and geopolitical capital/relations restricts the possibility of this happening to begin with). Just like a larger civilian engine from China in commercial a/c will take a long time to start to compare and contrast in civilian MRO.

There is a reason China goes with western (LEAP) engines in its COMAC C919 new airliner and not the WS-20 it has on Y-20 military transport for example...and we will have to wait and see how any future COMAC aircraft use WS-20 and its variants, but I would assume it takes a long time for mettle to be first proven in China domestically before international MRO accept it more credibly (along with however sales go with C919 internationally to drive that to begin with w.r.t boeing/airbus and embraer/ATR etc which I also think will be slower than lot of China enthusiasts assert).

One can back apply what this means in military domain to some degree.

 

[2033]

That will never happen.
None of the Chinese engines are on par with Western engines.
Not even the WS-15 engine,the chinese claim so many things about their engines but i havent seen any proof,has anyone ever?

Are you saying that we are better than China in aviation engines?

It is extraordinary that we are better than the Chinese despite their unlimited financial and human resources.

 

[Saithan]

Guys, taking things out of a context and continuing arguing is just giving reason for more misunderstandings.

I'd like to point out that we still know very little of what's going on, so returning to discuss things we've already talked about is a waste of time.

China isn't going to allow a western company to conduct a test on their platforms and reveal their capabilities to enemies. Not even if everything was in vague terms.

Only if you get your hands on a platform that crashes or due to war will you be able to asses that, and I am pretty damn sure China isn't going to let those platforms be the frontline in anything.

So talking about it is just waste of time. including the "KAAN-P" that I tossed in there initially.

 

[TR_123456]

Are you saying that we are better than China in aviation engines?

It is extraordinary that we are better than the Chinese despite their unlimited financial and human resources.

Thats not what i'm saying,i'm saying that i havent seen any western standard Chinese engine yet.
Boasting about and actually proving it are different things.

 

[AlperTunga]

We have recently provided Pakistan with a lot of strategic know-how and infrastructure consultations, we are looking for ways to work together, and it is undeniable that there has been a serious rapprochement in the military bureaucracies of both sides, not just in words but in concrete terms.

Consultation services for restructuring of the Karachi shipyard, the transfer of some know-how related the Milgem project to help them design, classify and build their own frigates, systems engineering and related works support to the Khalid (Agosta 90B) class submarines to provide them with a number of strategic capabilities, and, I think equally important, the agreement on the joint development of air-to-air missiles through the Gökdoğan infrastructure, were all important agenda items that were openly reported and not even discussed in the Turkish social media as much as they were reported in the Indian media. There are even some detailed issues, but I am not sure which is open source information and which is not, so I don't want to speculate.

In short, the opening of the KAAN program to Pakistan has been expected for years, there is nothing surprising in this. In the meantime, -isolating the issue of political instability in Pakistan-, I have the opinion that in general terms, it is extremely compatible with Turkish interests for Pakistan to have a strong military deterrent.

Is Pakistan more advanced than us in missile technology? We can make use of this. They also have quite a talented and intelligent engineer pool, which we can utilize. We should also learn how to build the bomb from them in detail.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Please do not share posts here unless you have “credible” sources to show.
Rumours and hearsay on important matters has no place here.
Your personal views can be shared as long as it is stated so.
Contrary behaviour is going to be treated as spam and warnings will be issued.

 

[Rooxbar]

If any of this is true, by the time Pakistan starts building Kaans or any subsystems, the technologies will be almost obsolete anyway; only way you can compete in this sector is if you share what you got technologically 5 years ago for good prices to fund your efforts to surpass that generation as the technology transfer to prospective competitor only gets the competitor to where you were a decade ago. This calculation works based on the human capital potential of the destination nation and your own industrial prospects.

 

[Hannibal]

Only the American F-35s will get the new APG-85 Radar, meaning it will not be exported. Greek F-35s although being Block 4, will not get the APG-85. If Aselsan can pull through with MURAD 600A, Kaan's radar will be superior to Greek and Israeli F-35s in the region.

 

[Nutuk]

So and now somebody tell me again why do we need the Eurofighter???

If Kaan is to be delivered in 2028, than Why the f. do we need Eurofighter? Are we extreme rich and masochists?


Either they tell us a lot of BS, expecting big delays in the Kaan project or something. Having Kaan delivered in 2028 and purchasing Eurofighter is non sensical

We talk about Kaan delivery in 3 years, Eurofighter is unlikely to be delivered earlier

 

[Hannibal]

So and now somebody tell me again why do we need the Eurofighter???

If Kaan is to be delivered in 2028, than Why the f. do we need Eurofighter? Are we extreme rich and masochists?


Either they tell us a lot of BS, expecting big delays in the Kaan project or something. Having Kaan delivered in 2028 and purchasing Eurofighter is non sensical

We talk about Kaan delivery in 3 years, Eurofighter is unlikely to be delivered earlier

Kaan will replace F16s.
Eurofighter will replace F4s.