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Yasar_TR

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True, the flight deck is shorter but check out the flight decks of the Aircraft carrier, they do not use longer landing and take off paths.
With arresting wires you only need less than 100m to stop the plane. But if you want to make use of the full load capacity of your plane, you need a lot of wing and engine power and most importantly long runway. Varan’s port side runway is for landing. Take off runway starts from the aft of the carrier and ends at the front.
Latest Sea Harrier has full vector thrusting capability with engines varying from 21000lbf to 27000lbf thrusts. US ones(latest) use an engine with 23000lbf Thrust. So Hurjet needs a lot of technical upgrades over it’s existing design features.
 

Nilgiri

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There are people talking about installing emals /catobar etc like systems to launch airplanes and they claim it is feasible, my point was rather against them. While i believe arrestor wired can be resolved peacefully depending on modifications it may require.

And the problem is that, i don't know how would they install the wires, cross deck connector and the engines will be needed, but to stop a plane of 3 tonnes they will need to penetrate the deck to install those fancy engines.

The deck is capable of handling vertical impacts, wires (rather the connector) will exert a lateral load which needs an additional strengtening or cut throughs to let wires pass through the cross deck connector from top to one or further deck lower.

This may seem like 'just opening a hole wide as wire' but to install connector and do required modifications they would cut at least a portion between major structural elements and install a modified one in place with connector installed on.

Instaling wires seems feasible but again requires permanent modifications, which won't be needed in amphibious mode, moreover occupying space in hangar and probably cancelling a spot next to the island. I don't know how much room the wire arrestor engines would require too and whether it will cause issues in hangar, or can be it extended further down one deck below in armoured vehicle storage.

So instead, i think, if they have a plane to take off and land on a ship they will start building an aircraft carrier right away.


It is first landing platform of the Turkish Navy so i presume there is a lot more to learn before actually concerning about that ski-jump :).
I prefer crew and admirals to adjust with having such a large vessel and training themselves on joint amphibious operations initially.
And even if F-35B was leased i presume we would see those operational and jumping over ski-jump at least beyond 2030, maybe 2035 for the reasons i have mentioned above.

Excellent reply, thank you. *Tips hat*
 

Yasar_TR

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The gun is not the fun part, wait for guided munitions with extended range.
As it stands it’s firing speed is only 5 less than Oto-Melara but falls short of “super rapid” , by 45 rounds per minute. Range is the same as the Italian counterpart compact model for normal rounds. Vulcano is another story! Oto-Melara holds 10 more rounds in it’s belly.
I would like to see what our navy says for this gun as proof of the pudding is in the eating! Our Navy is very meticulous about their equipment. So if they give the thumbs up, then this gun is OK.
More than the rate of fire; the extended range and guidance of the shell is going to be the deciding factor.
 

dustdevil

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The gun is not the fun part, wait for guided munitions with extended range.
Really???

my wishlist:

- 127/155mm long range gliding guided munition with 100km+ range
- smart subcalibre munition that can reach 100000ft+ altitude (Modern flak cannon, like US shooting at some targets with a howitzer with hypervelocity rounds)
- CIWS rounds fired from 76mm (if found effective)
 

Yasar_TR

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Really???

my wishlist:

- 127/155mm long range gliding guided munition with 100km+ range
- smart subcalibre munition that can reach 100000ft+ altitude (Modern flak cannon, like US shooting at some targets with a howitzer with hypervelocity rounds)
- CIWS rounds fired from 76mm (if found effective)
Some thing like this? US had already tried BAE developed hyper velocity projectiles.
 

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Anmdt

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Really???

my wishlist:

- 127/155mm long range gliding guided munition with 100km+ range
- smart subcalibre munition that can reach 100000ft+ altitude (Modern flak cannon, like US shooting at some targets with a howitzer with hypervelocity rounds)
- CIWS rounds fired from 76mm (if found effective)
probably we will first see smart 155mm shells with extended range in short term,
and then Aselsan will fit similat tech into a 76mm/127mm shell in short to medium term.
probably will be followed by Strales like 76 mm guided munition in medium to long term.
 

dustdevil

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Some thing like this? US had already tried BAE developed hyper velocity projectiles.
Exactly...


Subcalibre rounds, which is not a new technology, can reach very high speeds (hypervelocity) and altitudes and can be launched from normal barrels. Maybe they can rival early electromagnetic guns too. Combined with gliding aerodynamics and sensors they can be effective like missiles (with lower cost hopefully).
 

dustdevil

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probably we will first see smart 155mm shells with extended range in short term,
and then Aselsan will fit similat tech into a 76mm/127mm shell in short to medium term.
probably will be followed by Strales like 76 mm guided munition in medium to long term.
There is a stagnation of range for 155mm and lower calibre guns in Turkish Army. The world is moving ahead. I think using rockets made it less important but I hope we can reach equivalent distances with new long range munitions.
 
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Kartal1

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Really???

my wishlist:

- 127/155mm long range gliding guided munition with 100km+ range
- smart subcalibre munition that can reach 100000ft+ altitude (Modern flak cannon, like US shooting at some targets with a howitzer with hypervelocity rounds)
- CIWS rounds fired from 76mm (if found effective)
I remember when MKEK started to talk about developing the 155mm guided artillery rounds we were talking about 60km range. It will be interesting to see what advancement they made on the project as nearly nothing is coming out as information.
 

dustdevil

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I remember when MKEK started to talk about developing the 155mm guided artillery rounds we were talking about 60km range. It will be interesting to see what advancement they made on the project as nearly nothing is coming out as information.

just some guesses:

I’m surprised MKEK is trying new things now, they usually work on tried stuff and mechanical parts. I don’t think they can design the shell without aerodynamics knowledge though. So if they do it alone, it could be similar to another well known product.

SAGE should work more on conventional weapons, I’m sure they can design a smart round that can be launched at high speeds and can be guided.
 
T

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There is a stagnation of range for 155mm and lower calibre guns in Turkish Army. The world is moving ahead. I think using rockets made it less important but I hope we can reach equivalent distances with new long range munitions.
127mm cal and 155 mm cal full charges are separated from projectiles so that assembling projectiles makes firing process slower. I think our navy found optimal accuracy/ fire rate/ lethality ratio in 76 mm caliber.

Comparing 127mm projectiles with 122mm artillery rockets, i wonder which one is easier to storage.
What's more the longer range the worse accuracy.
 
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Combat-Master

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probably we will first see smart 155mm shells with extended range in short term,
and then Aselsan will fit similat tech into a 76mm/127mm shell in short to medium term.
probably will be followed by Strales like 76 mm guided munition in medium to long term.

Would be nice to have some shells to go with the cannons :)
 

Yasar_TR

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Exactly...


Subcalibre rounds, which is not a new technology, can reach very high speeds (hypervelocity) and altitudes and can be launched from normal barrels. Maybe they can rival early electromagnetic guns too. Combined with gliding aerodynamics and sensors they can be effective like missiles (with lower cost hopefully).
A round that travels at 7.4 mach at sea level, fired from a 40 year old 5 inch (127mm) navy gun with guidance system for accurate targeting and costs a fraction of an ESSM or similar missile is a no brainer.
A single RAM costs ~1 million dollars per missile , an ESSM costs twice as much. A guided hyper velocity round costing about 75-100 thousand dollars is a bargain. You don’t really need explosives with these rounds. As they travel at such high speed carrying 18kg of lethal mass, when they hit a tank they will obliterate it; or if they hit the hull of a ship they will tear right through it.
Taking in to consideration, our current good relations with BAE Systems, it could be a good idea to form a cooperation on these new aerodynamic rounds they have been developing.
 

dustdevil

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Combat-Master

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It looks like a domestic version of a well known round type, and it’s not a guided round or a long range round with wings.

View attachment 17273 View attachment 17275
There are sensors, actuators, etc in those designs. Has MKEK done a similar project before?

You've skipped over my question with a question of your own, oh well..
So if they do it alone, it could be similar to another well known product.
Guess we aren't going to get to the bottom of this..
 

Anmdt

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It looks like a domestic version of a well known round type, and it’s not a guided round or a long range round with wings.

View attachment 17273 View attachment 17275
There are sensors, actuators, etc in those designs. Has MKEK done a similar project before?

For other rounds it seems they worked with http://www.eda-ltd.com.tr/index.php/tr/

MKEK will produce shell and explosive, fixed wings etc so they don't have much challenge for themselves in terms of production.
Control surfaces and control units, seekers will be made and delivered by Aselsan.
Assembly will be done by MKEK so they will need to get used to assembly of complex shells.
Can we do that? Let's see.
 

dustdevil

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You've skipped over my question with a question of your own, oh well..

Guess we aren't going to get to the bottom of this..
Sorry, could not understand initially. I thought you linked 120mm HE-T as an example of MKEK capability so tried to answer it.

"So if they do it alone, it could be similar to another well known product."

Usually this happens for other calibres. For electronic parts they will need outside support (Aselsan, Roketsan, SAGE)

For long range rounds, if it would be crude tech, they can increase propellant for base bleed, increase barrel pressure etc, add static wings with the help of another company if they did not advance in-house capabilities.

Other option would be to reverse engineer or make a functional copy of another foreign product.

I'm just wildly guessing, don't take my word for it. I can't trust MKEK but would be very happy if it's possible.
 

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