TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

[comolokko]

Poor Hurkus Still flying in & out of TAI facilities. Only participating in certain airshows. I hope they deliver it ASAP.

hurkus was not the target project. it is a stepping stone for hurjet.

 

[MADDOG]

hurkus was not the target project. it is a stepping stone for hurjet.

Exactly. I don't share the same concerns with the Hurjet project for instance. But it's still sad seeing this cute little plane not getting the attention it deserves. It's been a decade.

 

[MADDOG]

Aircraft is too hard to fly and requires skill, hard to recover from a flat spin etc. That's why HYEU will be used by more skilled pilots.

Probably 15 Hürkuş B orders will be cancelled. 6 HYEU aircraft will be converted from existing airframes. Others will be exported.

I don't remember seeing or reading this anywhere. But it could very well be true. If that's the case, the future of this aircraft is uncertain. I haven't done CFD analysis on this bird but it "looks" like a stable design. The raked wingtip is not something we see very often on military trainers. Perhaps TAI tried to tame the aircraft this way. It went through certain design modifications over the years after all.

 

[comolokko]

Exactly. I don't share the same concerns with the Hurjet project for instance. But it's still sad seeing this cute little plane not getting the attention it deserves. It's been a decade.

I think it will reach serious number of exports

 

[peers]

Firstly get PD-170s into the service please.

TEI Pd170 is used on Anka UAV. Serial production is carried out. It is also a finished product with export agreements.

https://www.tei.com.tr/tr/medya/basin-bultenleri/tei-pd170-seri-uretim-ilk-parti-teslim-toreni-gerceklestirildi

 

[peers]

Haha you think so. Serial production doesn't mean it's in use.

As of September 2021, there is a news in the link below that more than 60 pd170 engines have been produced. If these engines were not mass-produced and not used, what could they have been produced for? It doesn't do it as a toy....

TUSAŞ Anka - Vikipedi

tr.wikipedia.org

TEI, 60'dan fazla TEI-PD170 motoru üretti

TEI, insansız hava araçlarına güç vermek için geliştirilen Türkiye’nin ilk turbodizel havacılık motoru PD170’ten 5 kilogram daha hafif ve 55 beygir daha güçlü PD222ST motorunu tanıttı. USAŞ Motor Sanayii AŞ (TEI), insansız hava araçlarına (İHA) güç vermek için geliştirilen Türkiye’nin ilk...

m5dergi.com

 

[TheInsider]

From as I heard before 4-5 months ago is that the radar currently uses foreign GaAs modules. Perfomance with GaAs modules were somewhere between APG-80(Maybe it was APG-68V9) and APG-83. They say with GaN modules performance will ramp up. Probably will be better than APG-83 Getting to modules, for now indigenous modules are not that great in terms of performce. They are currently in a good position on GaAs. But GaN modules have some problems like overheating etc. S band GaN modules are great but X band is a bit tricky. But from latest I heard schedule will be missed with a couple years.

I can confirm this is incorrect. X band GaN modules are ready and performing really well. The problem is not about the modules themselves it is about some outsourced components of the module. The amount of delay will be proportional to the amount of embargo we face. SSB announced a project to nationalize those components with a completion date of 09/2023 so if we can't get those components the project will be delayed at least a year.

 

[Heartbang]

TEI Pd170 is used on Anka UAV. Serial production is carried out. It is also a finished product with export agreements.

https://www.tei.com.tr/tr/medya/basin-bultenleri/tei-pd170-seri-uretim-ilk-parti-teslim-toreni-gerceklestirildi

what engine does the export versions of TB2 use tho? i heard three-bladed propeller means domestic engine but couldn't find any info on which engine it is?

 

[BTT34]

AFAIK modules and other foreign components was from SELEX ES..

Are imported modules GaN or GaAs?

 

[Fairon]

View attachment 43163

Well... Hurjet naval it is. Arda is speaking facts tho. TAI is acting like Skunkworks again by not releasing any images of Hurjet, therefore we can't really spot the progress. But let's assume everything is going according to plan. Designing a naval aircraft is a difficult task on its own, redesigning a jet trainer so that it can be used by the Navy must be even harder. When I visited TAI like a year ago I've heard that they were considering possible design alterations to the Hurjet platform (FYI I don't know if they were referring to Hurjet Naval, take this info with a grain of salt). And that was when the production line was empty. We shall wait & see.

I am really wondering how will our fighter aircraft force structre will look in the future.

So our fleet planing revolved around uisng F35 and MMU as high-lo structre. Because of F35(both we are out of the project and F35 turned out to be expansive aircraft to maintain and operate) that failed. Logical next step creating Hurjet derivative to act as a lo aircraft. We can operate only MMU but MMU also became bigger and possibly expansive to both build and maintain. It won't be like the Eurofighter, Rafale or Gripen. We are developing a powerfull national engine and using that both Hurjet derivative and MMU will be perfect for logistics (Like F16 and F15) and our budget.(We only need to develop one type of engine) It was all looking good considering these developments.

But now it seems that we are siriously developing Hurjet Naval. It must be using two engines since it is for the aircraft carrier, and it must not be too big as well.(Around the size of Rafale or Mig29) Our national F110 engine will be too big for that kind of aircraft so there will be a need for second engine. Will it be F404? Are we try to develop two types of very complex engines? Also how many Hurjet Navals are we going to build? Will it worth it to develop just for 20-25 aircraft?

Well we can use Hurjet Naval for Air Force for replacement for F16. That way the RnD seems to be worth it but there will be another problem, engine. Which engine will Hurjet Naval use? Two F404 seems to be the logical choice but there are no guarantees that we could buy them as we like.(Acquiring engines for trainer aircraft is one thing, acquirening engines for naval and air force fighter is another) We need to develop fighter engines for our use. TEI or TRMotor could develop it but they will be allready working on the MMU engine with all of their resources. When will the Hurjet engine be ready? We can split the projects on both companies but how will that work?

And there is MIUS. Where will it be fit? It seems to be answer for Navy's fighter aircraft problem but we are still developing Hurjet Naval. I guess because we are developing Hurjet Naval, we are not developing Hurjet derivative for Air Force. MIUS can be work as lo aircraft for Air Force but developing Hurjet Naval won't be woth the effort. At this point I am very confused about our planning. Are we figuring out as we go or do we have a plan? I think we had a plan but politics(and ambargoes but we seem to succesfully alternate our plans around that) got in the way and we are adding some unnecessary and inlogical goals to the plan.(Hurjet naval and aircraft carrier)

I just hope we don't bottle the projects we actually need to try to achive the projects that pleases politics.

 

[TheInsider]

Are imported modules GaN or GaAs?

We have our own national X band GaAs modules suitable for fighter radars it has an overwhelming amount of national contribution and we have no problems with its serial production. When Aselsans fighter radar is produced with those modules it performs somewhere between an APG-80 (UAE F-16 Block-60) and APG-83 (F-16V) better than the APG-83 and somewhat comes short compared to APG-80. Note that even though both APG-80 and 83 use GaAs modules, APG-80 is a far better radar than APG-83. Don't let 83-80 numbers fool you.

We also have our own national X band GaN modules suitable for fighter radars but those modules are dependent on foreign components without those components we can't produce a complete module. When we try to change those components with whatever we find on the market problems like overheating arise. At the moment serial production of the national X band GaN modules for fighters radars can't be done without those components. SSB launched a project called "the development of components for GaN-based transmit/receive modules". The project will be finished on 09/2023. We can't get those components either because of military embargos or the reluctance of supplier companies because we will produce our own modules and cut their market.

I have no info about any GaN module (complete module not one or several components of the module) imported from Selex. I know Selex and Aselsan have close ties. I don't rule out the possibility of an interim solution. Selex might have rejected providing components but might have accepted providing the whole module.

Anyway, we will hear more from this project by the end of the year as Aselsan has to show something before 48 months finishes in December 2022 as it is the term of the official contract( December 2018-December 2022). I guess if a prototype can be readied as the contract demands, the nationalization of components for the serial production can be done while the prototype is in testing and optimization.

 

[BTT34]

We have our own national X band GaAs modules suitable for fighter radars it has an overwhelming amount of national contribution and we have no problems with its serial production. When Aselsans fighter radar is produced with those modules it performs somewhere between an APG-80 (UAE F-16 Block-60) and APG-83 (F-16V) better than the APG-83 and somewhat comes short compared to APG-80. Note that even though both APG-80 and 83 use GaAs modules, APG-80 is a far better radar than APG-83. Don't let 83-80 numbers fool you.

We also have our own national X band GaN modules suitable for fighter radars but those modules are dependent on foreign components without those components we can't produce a complete module. When we try to change those components with whatever we find on the market problems like overheating arise. At the moment serial production of the national X band GaN modules for fighters radars can't be done without those components. SSB launched a project called "the development of components for GaN-based transmit/receive modules". The project will be finished on 09/2023. We can't get those components either because of military embargos or the reluctance of supplier companies because we will produce our own modules and cut their market.

I have no info about any GaN module (complete module not one or several components of the module) imported from Selex. I know Selex and Aselsan have close ties. I don't rule out the possibility of an interim solution. Selex might have rejected providing components but might have accepted providing the whole module.

Anyway, we will hear more from this project by the end of the year as Aselsan has to show something before 48 months finishes in December 2022 as it is the term of the official contract( December 2018-December 2022). I guess if a prototype can be readied as the contract demands, the nationalization of components for the serial production can be done while the prototype is in testing and optimization.

Thank you!

 

[peers]

There are certain projects that are beyond politics;
TFX , Ozgur, Milden, Milgem, National AD projects Hisar and Siper
Are just a few that no political entity will have the power to hinder or stop. Short of signing their political suicide or being framed as traitors, I can not see these or similar projects being put even on back burners by any one.
MIUS is also part of this puzzle. As the future of our air superiority depends on the success of this project, I have all the confidence that we will persevere to make these projects happen and come to fruition.

My friend, Turkey is the most democratic country in Europe. We are such a democratic country that even a deputy from the opposition party can say that a drone bomb was dropped on the picnickers''Siha Sezgin''.There is treason to the ruling party and the penalty is heavy, there is no treason to the country. For this reason, such strategic projects can be shelved in a possible management change. (MMU, Hisar, Bora, Satellite projects).

 

[Zafer]

Short of signing their political suicide or being framed as traitors, I can not see these or similar projects being put even on back burners by any one

Political suicide ?
Who cares about it ? They haven't been in power and they have nothing to lose. And those powers who push to get them to government have no mercy as they are all invaders of Türkiye who held the power to rule Türkiye as the hidden deep state and have no mercy in damaging every last interest of Türkiye. It is no different from losing to the enemy in war which results in your strength as a nation being taken away and being reduced to the sick man that has no power. A bull getting castrated and becoming an ox, same thing.

 

[comolokko]

those guys have been making jet planes for almost a hundred years (since 1941) . I would not advise you to stray from the facts when comparing the f35 and the mmu. f35 flying. mmu is still in its mother's womb. We should put aside jealousy and anger and go about our business.

 

[Ryder]

We could have been making these as well If Nuri demirağ's company was still running.

Thanks to adnan menderes again for destroying these

It was happening before a lot of stuff closed due to the Marshall plan.

 

[Huelague]

We could have been making these as well If Nuri demirağ's company was still running.

Thanks to adnan menderes again for destroying these

Dude, you live in the past.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Do they (USA) have more experience, money, personal and resources? Yes, they have. But what is our advantage? We can fall back of current technologies and up to date findings. For example, no one in aviation use graphen, its the newest "technology" (material). We can easily switch to this material in our projects. Aother example is the using of the newest CPU. Or 3D printer, which we use right now.
Of course, USA is also able to use this technologies, but only for current projects, not for completed projects. Even they try, it would cost much money and work.

One thing that eludes some, about USA is that; in spite of their technological superiority and their economical prowess, they are governed by profit and loss. Those companies are giant private companies with a lot of pull in Congress and state departments. They have to present a healthy bottom line at the end of the year to their investors and share holders. That means cutting corners and economising where they can. Not introducing the latest tech and innovation until it is absolutely necessary.
We on the other hand are using whatever the latest technology we can get our hands on. Also utilising new innovations wherever we can.
With our TB2 and UCAVs we have forced all armies’ hands to reconsider the position of tanks and armoured fighting machines in the battlefield.
With MIUS we may push airforces to think about manned fighter jets.
With ULAQ type SIDAs marine warfare basics may be redrawn.

 

[TheInsider]

We might also think Turkish defense industry as a start-up. Start-ups have big advantages compared to huge holdings.

 

[TheInsider]

Turkiye wants to acquire 30 second-hand Eurofighters (+50 more as an option for a total of 80 fighters) and upgrade them with Turkish subsystems.

UK-Turkiye negotiations include;

TFX engine production
Turkiye becoming a partner nation for the Tempest project
Possibility of secondhand Eurofighter and upgrading them with Turkish contribution/subsystems.
Turkish aircraft carrier project.

BTW no deals at the moment on any of them. Eurofighter is especially complicated due to the nature of the fighter.