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TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

Yasar_TR

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I'm reminded of the scramjet article in Roketsan magazine. Therefore, we may have developed a hypersonic glide vehicle capable of reaching altitude with a ballistic missile. Claiming to be a scramjet requires that the average cruise speed be hypersonic once the engine is running. Indeed, when the Tayfun Block-4 was mentioned, it was assumed that the missile would be hypersonic. Normally, such a definition isn't used for ballistic missiles based on maximum cruise speed. Therefore, I hope we develop an HGV and add it to the inventory.
Bro, reading above doesn’t make sense.
You are showing CRDE details and talking about scramjet.
Then you are talking about hypersonic and ballistic missiles.

Can you please explain in depth what you mean?

Ballistic missiles like Bora, Tayfun reach hyoersonic speeds during their flights. (Mainly in midcourse)
Yet ICBMs are hyoersonic all the way.
Where as a Bora may hit target with 1.5 Mach , an ICBM may hit target with 8-10 Mach.
Bora may fly hypersonic for a very short time. Yet Tayfun B4 may fly most of its trajectory in hypersonic speed. But still hit target at high supersonic.
 

CAN_TR

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what is the accuracy of the Tayfun? Because the major problem with the iranian ballistic missiles used against isreal they really served no strategic value due to low accuracy and were mainly launched on cities hitting civilian structures. Are these able to directly target say air defence systems?
It hit the target bullseye, so it's safe to say less then 10m.
 

Bogeyman 

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Bro, reading above doesn’t make sense.
You are showing CRDE details and talking about scramjet.
Then you are talking about hypersonic and ballistic missiles.

Can you please explain in depth what you mean?

Ballistic missiles like Bora, Tayfun reach hyoersonic speeds during their flights. (Mainly in midcourse)
Yet ICBMs are hyoersonic all the way.
Where as a Bora may hit target with 1.5 Mach , an ICBM may hit target with 8-10 Mach.
Bora may fly hypersonic for a very short time. Yet Tayfun B4 may fly most of its trajectory in hypersonic speed. But still hit target at high supersonic.
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The image shows a cruise speed of 1500-2500 m/sec. This falls between the high supersonic and hypersonic ranges. I'm guessing the ballistic missile ignites its scramjet engine in the second stage after reaching an altitude of 50 km+. We don't have the power to launch an HGV like the Russians, which dives from a Sarmat ICBM. We don't have any ballistic missiles with such a long range. Therefore, it makes more sense to launch into space with a conventional engine and handle the remaining critical phase with a scramjet engine. Furthermore, hybrid rocket technology can't carry twice the payload of an average ballistic missile.


WHAT IS A RDE?

A Rotating Detonation Engine (RDE) is essentially a more compact and efficient method of creating thrust for a wide variety of military relevant systems. These mechanically simple engines have no moving parts making them less complex than gas turbine engines and therefore potentially lower cost and simpler to manufacture.

RDEs rapidly burn fuel via a supersonically travelling detonation wave; this in turn delivers high performance in a small volume. This volume savings can be used to increase fuel and/or payload volume providing potential range, speed and affordability benefits compared to rockets, ramjets and gas-turbines.

This rapidly developing technology enables a wide range of military applications including air-to-ground, air-to-air and surface weapons. Building on sustained Air Force and Navy investment, current research is targeted at expeditiously transitioning truly disruptive effects to the warfighter.

It is possible to leverage a detonation wave in systems from ground power to turbine engines, ram/scramjets and rockets. Each of these systems, benefits from a reduced volume/mass and an increased performance.

The illustration to left and described below is for the simplest of applications a rotating detonation ramjet:

  • Composed of 2 coaxial cylinders with gap between
  • Fuel & oxidizer continuously flow into annular gap
  • Detonation travels around annulus & burns mixture
    • Delivering extremely compact heat release
    • Increasing pressure and cycle efficiency without mechanically complex rotating machinery
  • Products leave nozzle axially creating thrust
Military relevance of RDE ramjets is enhanced by:

  • Simple design potential enables production at rates necessary for mass weapon employment
  • High-speed detonation wave delivers continuous thrust and minimizes integration challenges
Air-to-ground weapons

  • RDE powered weapons have the potential to provide a clear advantage to our military:
  • Range, survivability, loadout and payload that enhances legacy platform utility in near peer fight
  • High-speed standoff with better loadout and versatility
  • Compatible on a wide range of platforms
  • Price point that delivers affordable destruction of high-value, time-sensitive targets and mass effects
  • Addresses SECAF air dominance, moving target engagement and long-range strike Operational Imperatives (OI)
WHY ARE RDE IMPORTANT TO WARFIGHTER?

As stated earlier, rotating detonation can be employed in a wide range of engine configurations including in ramjets, rockets and gas turbines. The discussion here will center on two applications of the RDE ramjet illustrated on page 1.

Both internally and externally carried munitions are constrained in overall dimension and launch mass by several factors including associated weapons platforms, ground handling equipment and logistical concerns. The small volume for the RDE combustor allows critical volume to be applied to fuel and payload.

This is how the US defines the technology we work with
 

Bogeyman 

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The R&D department of the Ministry of National Defense announced that it has developed an air-to-air missile.

The second missile on the back says "air-to-air" and "air defense missile".
 
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Strong AI

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@TheInsider

Both ST and GDH claim the range of Göktan as 150 km. But that doesn't have to mean much. And ST says in the video the rocket is solid fuel (kati yakit), but that has to be an error.
 

Strong AI

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what is the accuracy of the Tayfun? Because the major problem with the iranian ballistic missiles used against isreal they really served no strategic value due to low accuracy and were mainly launched on cities hitting civilian structures. Are these able to directly target say air defence systems?

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Yasar_TR

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I'm guessing the ballistic missile ignites its scramjet engine in the second stage after reaching an altitude of 50 km+.
Bro you have mixed different technologies and made a concoction out of it. (In Turkish a Çorba)

First of all CRDE is a technology that is not used by any missile or platform yet. Only recently did they manage to apply it to test platforms. There is still a long road ahead. First it will be adaptive bypass engines then CRDE.

Ballistic missiles don’t have scramjet engines. They are either solid or liquid fuelled. Or they are hybrid which use one stage with solid fuel, another with liquid fuel.

Scramjet engines are air breathing engines and they do not work in Space.

Ballistic missiles are thrusted up towards the space like a giant firework to follow a specific trajectory. When they reach their apogee or just before or just after, their engine cuts out. They start losing speed and they start to fall towards earth in a “ballistic” trajectory. That is when their speed increase until they reach dense atmosphere around 20-15 km in altitude. Then their speed start to decrease. The heavier they are and the more aerodynamic they are, the less they lose their speed.

A SRBM like Tayfun is solid fuelled. But these are quasi ballistic missiles. In other words their trajectories are suppressed. They do not go high enough to enter space. They may level out between 50K to 70K altitude and fall down to earth from there following a predetermined ballistic trajectory. MRBMs enter space.

We don't have the power to launch an HGV like the Russians, which dives from a Sarmat ICBM. We don't have any ballistic missiles with such a long range. Therefore, it makes more sense to launch into space with a conventional engine and handle the remaining critical phase with a scramjet engine. Furthermore, hybrid rocket technology can't carry twice the payload of an average ballistic missile
Hypersonic Glide Vehicles do not have engines to propel them. They are taken high in to space by a ballistic missile and released at great velocities to glide down to earth.
Since scramjet won’t work in space, you can’t do what you are suggesting.
A conventional engine for space flight is the type of engines used in Tayfun or Hybrid Delta V rocket. We as Türkiye, don’t yet have the technology to do that.

Hybrid Rocket technology is the main technology that will carry heavier weights in to space. It is still a ballistic missile tech. Space shuttle and some Ariane missiles use solid fuel as propellant. But it is usually liquid fuel that is used for space flight.
 
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TheInsider

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NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

 

boredaf

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NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

What the fuck did they make this from, adamantium? This is an insane performance. To give it some more context, MOP (massive ordinance penetrator) US used on Iranian facilities can reportedly penetrate about 18 meters of reinforced concrete, while weighing 15 times more than NEB.
 

Angry Turk !!!

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NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

Wow, that's a huge difference. Congratz to the Turkish engineers.
 

Strong AI

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SSB, ASELSAN, and ROKETSAN signed a significant cooperation agreement for the security of the Sky Homeland.

As part of the IDEF 2025 International Defense Industry Fair, a contract was signed for the development of the AESA Seeker (AGRAS 3101/AA) and the Missile-Borne Data Link for the GÖKBORA Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile System.

 

Nurhak40

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NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

Serious question, can these kinds of neb bombs also be implemented in ballistic missiles as warhead? Like intead of dropping from planes but putting it on missiles as warheads. Like you have a hostile nation who you cannot come closer to with airplanes but you can however saturate its airdefences by number of ballistic missiles to destroy its fortified airfield?
You guys know who i talk about and its fortified airbases.
 

Pokemonte13

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Serious question, can these kinds of neb bombs also be implemented in ballistic missiles as warhead? Like intead of dropping from planes but putting it on missiles as warheads. Like you have a hostile nation who you cannot come closer to with airplanes but you can however saturate its airdefences by number of ballistic missiles to destroy its fortified airfield?
You guys know who i talk about and its fortified airbases.
Ballistic missile are not that precise or you need to fire like 10 or so on the same target secondly fortified airbases? You can destroy the runway with regular HE warheads but the aircraft bunker would be difficult to hit but honestly I would just spam them on ad sites with high Fragmentation warheads and on runways that would leave the airspace exposed
 

Yasar_TR

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SSB, ASELSAN, and ROKETSAN signed a significant cooperation agreement for the security of the Sky Homeland.

As part of the IDEF 2025 International Defense Industry Fair, a contract was signed for the development of the AESA Seeker (AGRAS 3101/AA) and the Missile-Borne Data Link for the GÖKBORA Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile System.

Now I am going to play the devil’s advocate.
1. This means that the Gokbora has not flown yet. Even if it has, it hasn’t flown to hit a target.
2. There is still quite a bit of work to be done. If Aselsan takes its time to develop a seeker head, then the missile’s readiness will be delayed significantly.
3. We were waiting for a liquid/gel fuelled Gökhan, which was tested and almost ready to be part of the inventory. Instead they gave us a meteor equivalent solid fuelled Gokbora. This was either because the Gökhan wasn’t ready or the top brass preferred the meteor equivalent.

In all honesty, gokbora is the logical choice. But it should have been that, from day 1.
 
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